Raving Conservative: Hyppocrisy and Bigotry

Thursday, April 05, 2007

Hyppocrisy and Bigotry

I took a break from blogging because there has been such a myriad of insanity inflicted upon America in the last month, largely by the Democrats in Congress, that if I were to write about it all I fear myhead would have exploded at the sheer absurdity that has been forced into reality against all logic, sense, morals, reason, and intelligence. However, something has come to my attention that stands out even in the midst of this insanisty.

Allow me to lay out the foundation before I tell you the actual event.

As everyone in the world who has access to information knows, America was attacked by terrorists. Subsequently, there have been bold attacks in Europe as well. Globally, there has been an uprise in terorism as a whole. The common thread in all of this terrorism is Islam.

Given this fact, it is reasonable that schools would conduct terrorist attack drills. How to react to Muslim terrorists engaging in their hell-born jihad is an excellent idea.

But this?

The following is part of a release from the American Center for Law and Justice:

A mock hostage-taking with staged - albeit terrifying - gunmen descending on a New Jersey high school as part of a drill occurred late last month. Who were the portrayed terrorists?CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS.

No other group in America would tolerate this kind of religious profiling! And we will not stand for it either. Please support our efforts to hold school officials accountable for their oppressive actions. Give your online gift of support right now.

Don't get me wrong, taking precautions over school violence is imperative. However, the Burlington Township school district went over the top ... and TOOK HOLY WEEK HOSTILITY TO A WHOLE NEW LEVEL.The school district decided that the group engaged in the hostage-taking activity was "right-wing fundamentalists" ... a group the school named the "New Crusaders" ... who do not believe in separation of church and state. This is unbelievable!In fact, the mock gunmen allegedly stormed the school and took students hostage, "seeking justice because the daughter of one member of the organization had been expelled for PRAYING BEFORE CLASS."

Let's inject some reality into this fantasy.

CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EXACTLY ZERO OF THE TERRORISM IN THE WORLD!

How the people who concocted this drill ever thought that Christians are a greater threat than Muslims is so far outside of reality that I am forced to conclude that they are truly insane. Who blew up the world trade center? Apparently these folks think it was Christians who were offended by anti-Christian school policies. Who has been bombing and rioting in Europe over the slightest insult? Last I knew it was Muslims and only Muslims, but apparently these morons believe that they terrorists are Christians!

The School sweree taken over by liberals long ago, and places like New Jersey, Massachussetts, California, and other liberal states are more liberal than others. This event is proof of something people like me have been declaring for a long time:

Liberalism is Anti-Christian, and liberals want to see Christianity destroyed, villified, and demonized at any cost. They are doing this because they are offended by the fact that Christianity declares right and wrong in certain terms and warns of consequences for our actions. One of the hallmarks of liberalism is simple acceptance of almost any human behavior no matter how kooky or destructive, sometimes with the caveat of declaring that causing intentional harm is bad.

Because Islam is so insignificant in America they do not feel the need to be honest in their conversation and actions regarding it. It poses no threat to their personal desires at this time by virtue of the fact that Atheists outnumber Muslims here many times over in the U.S. However, to them Christianity is an imminent threat because Christians compose a large majority of America.

They fail to realize that the greatest force for good in the world is the Christian Church.

They fail to realize that the greatest forces for women's rights in the world have been Christianity, and Juadaism before that.

They fail to realize that Christianity created the free world.

They fail to realize that if Islam were as dominant in America as Chritisanity is that they would all be executed for crimes against Allah.

Things like this cause me to question the intelligence and sanity of people who actually buy into liberal doctrines. Ideology over fact seems to be the rule of modern liberalism, and it is, in my opinion, the greatest destructive force in America.

18 Comments:

Well, putting aside the standard argument that any act of terrorism in the name of faith is a corruption -- which I'm sure you'll agree to, at least when it comes to Christianity . . .

How many Muslims have gone on shooting sprees in American schools, ever?

This isn't Europe. Suggesting we need to model preparedness after European circumstances is silly.

The Columbine kids were a couple white boys from a Christian family. Their martyr videos invoked the Oklahoma City bombing (an act of "Christian" terrorism) and the Waco fire . . .

And most if not all of the copycat school shooting sprees have been done by people meeting pretty much the same profile.

When it comes right down to it, there are more "Christian" extremists in this country than there are Muslims of any type.

And as your angry tirades aptly demonstrate, many of them become more radicalized and angry every day. They begin to isolate themselves from society and start looking at everybody as an enemy, the same way Osama cultists do.

I'm not going to get dragged into another debate about how Christians are pure and upstanding and Muslims are evil heretics. I know what you believe.

The fact is that there are many out there whose view of Christianity is corrupt, violent, and hateful. You can convince yourself that they don't exist or are not worth talking about, but their networks in this country are a lot stronger than Osama's.

They also blend in with the general population a lot better.

By catastrophile, at 2:05 PM
I'd have to say all this hoopla about Burlington is a bunch of over-reaction.

They never made any claims about Christianity. They just used "right wing fundamentalists" as the set up. I'd suggest they would have been much better off to have just used something like "crazed extremists" or something that didn't seem to tilt left or right, muslim or christian or jewish.

But the outrage over this incident has been way beyond the pale.

As I said, they didn't target Christians at all, but violent extremists. I'm sure that you, Daniel, don't self-identify as a violent extremist as most of us don't, so there's no great reason to so internalize this and make it out to be some sort of threat to Christianity. This is not religious profiling.

I'd say there's a much greater threat to Christianity from this vainglorious outrage than there was from the original incident.

Comments like, "Liberalism is Anti-Christian" are a greater threat than this event. Demonization is a great threat, and they would have been better off doing as I said, but your demonization and the demonization of this school district is a greater threat still.

These people weren't claiming to be Christians in their actions. Those who are now demonizing other Christians and citizens are claiming to be Christians. And THAT is the threat to Christianity - our own hypocrisy.

I wonder how many death threats that school district has received by now?

Get over it.

By Dan Trabue, at 10:59 PM
And really, Daniel, relax a bit. You're going to have a coronary if the Dems win the presidency and the Congress as expected in '08. I survived eight years of Reagan/Bush and almost eight more years of Bush (and I survived the horrible but not as horrible Clinton years as well).

You'll be okay. We'll all be okay. Find some real troubles to worry about.

By Dan Trabue, at 11:03 PM
Wow, the ignorance here is stupefying.

First, Catastrophile, despite your attempts to claim that the Oklahoma City bobing and various school shootings are acts of Christian terrorism there is not one that has ben done in the name of Jesus. Compare this to all of the Muslim terrorists who always invoke Mohammad and/or Allah. Trying to claim that kids who commit crimes who come from Christian families are Christian terrorists is false, it is ignorant, and it is bigoted. On top of all of that, it demonstrates that you believe the false notion that Christians are somehow more of a threat than Muslim terrorists, which is so far beyond the realm of reality as to be simply nuts.

Second, Dan T, once again you appear to either be unable to read or to be unable to read more than the first sentence. So, for your benefit, since yur entire argument is contrary to the truth, I shall repeat the facts here:

The portrayed terrorists were specifically Christians who were offended that prayer was not allowed in school. This was made clear beyond all possible doubt.

Dan T, if you can't start finishing reading the atricles you comment on I am just going to start deleting the comments you make that show such a lack of facts that it is apparent you didn't actually read the whole thing because I am tired of repeating the facts I laid out in my articles in the comments section for your benefit.

On top of everything, I think outrage over this incident is extremely appropriate because it promotes a lie about an entire religion and the people who follow it. While it is a given that some INDIVIDUALS have done evil in teh name of Jesus in the last 100 years, the fact is that there the only organized violent organization claiming to be Christian is the Irish Republican Army, which has been denounced by everyone who doesn't belong to it since it was founded, enjoys no popular support, and has been fading slowly away and geting less violent. Compare this to the dozens of large terrorist groups and thousands of terrorist cells around the world that are following a strict Muslim doctrine of Jihad.

While we have not had Muslim terrorists invade schools in America yet, it has been proven that our schools are on their list of targets. GIven this, it is only a matter of time before they actualy do invade a school unless we can destroy them first. it is why we are fighting the war on terrorism in the first place, to kill them before they can kill thousands more of us.

The vastly more worrisome aspet of this whole situation people like the two of you who actually believe this kind of false portrayal of Christianity is an appropriate thing to, and places you among the people i have criticized inthis article.

And Dan T, until you can develop the moral honesty to to denounce outright lies about teh faith that you claim to follow, I don;t want to hear anything about you claiming to be a Christain again. Use your words like the rest of us to promote the good, fight the lies, and quit defending every attempt to destroy the Faith. And definitely don;t liken words to violence like you implied here just now. It's dishonest.

By Daniel Levesque, at 9:32 AM
"The portrayed terrorists were specifically Christians who were offended that prayer was not allowed in school. This was made clear beyond all possible doubt."

Well, I read what you wrote and I read what was in the original article (mostly bypassing the WND and ACLJ "reporting") and I didn't see any mention of them calling them "christians" but rather "rightwing extremists."

There certainly are rightwing extremists out there who are violent. I don't know that I'd claim them as Christians, even if they claim to be Christians. I'd say their actions speak for themselves.

Certainly the context was that these fictional folk considered themselves to be Christians. So what?

"The vastly more worrisome aspet of this whole situation people like the two of you who actually believe this kind of false portrayal of Christianity is an appropriate thing to"

Well, if you read what I wrote, I stated specifically two times that I thought it was a poor idea for the school/police officials to have identified them thusly. I'd suggest they should have identified the terrorists differently, but that it's not worth all the consternation and ass-clinching occurring across the nation.

"I don;t want to hear anything about you claiming to be a Christain again."

Well, you know what brother, you'll just have to get over it. I AM a Christian, saved by God's grace and committed to Jesus as the lord of my life. No offense, but I just don't care if you don't want to hear me claim the reality of my Christianity.

Would you rather deny my Christ and say "I'm not a Christian," when it's not the truth?

By Dan Trabue, at 12:13 PM
Daniel: "despite your attempts to claim that the Oklahoma City bobing and various school shootings are acts of Christian terrorism there is not one that has ben done in the name of Jesus."

I could go collecting links and info on the Christian Identity "movement" and their ties to McVeigh and links to Islamic terrorists and so on and so forth, on the protracted terror campaigns waged between Christian sects in Ireland, on the "Christianization" of the Philippines, and on and on and on, but since you insulted me, I'll let you go find that stuff out for yourself and just post this instead.

Daniel: "Trying to claim that kids who commit crimes who come from Christian families are Christian terrorists is false, it is ignorant, and it is bigoted."

Trying to claim that any "terrorism" is caused by a particular faith is equally bigoted. Terrorism is primarily a political tactic, by its very definition, not a religious one. It is employed by people who are politically radicalized, which often accompanies religious extremism.

The Phelps family come to mind, I know you're a big fan of theirs. Those at Waco? People who advocate exterminating Muslims because they're a blemish on God's Earth?

When it comes to flying off the handle and resorting to violence, no religion has a monopoly.

Daniel: "On top of all of that, it demonstrates that you believe the false notion that Christians are somehow more of a threat than Muslim terrorists, which is so far beyond the realm of reality as to be simply nuts."

You're oversimplifying here. When it comes to violent political acts committed on our soil, you're trying to deny the reality that Muslim terrorists account for approximately zero of the crimes committed every year.

We had one event, 5 years ago, featuring 19 people who got extremely lucky and did an incredible amount of damage.

The noise about all these terror networks just itching to force us into submission is about as credible as the previous noise about how the Soviets were just waiting for the right moment to overrun us and close all the churches. The inflation of that threat became more and more pronounced, you'll notice, right up until the USSR actually collapsed and the wingnuts couldn't sustain their narrative anymore.

Daniel: "you who actually believe this kind of false portrayal of Christianity is an appropriate thing"

Now you're just making $#!+ up. Just because McVeigh or the Branch Davidians or the KKK or the IRA or the Phelpses or Pat Robertson or Jeffrey Daumer claim to be Christians doesn't mean I endorse their opinion.

It's you who wants to deny that these nutjobs exist and greatly outnumber Muslims in this country. It's you who wants to claim the threat they pose is "zero" and you're twisting and misrepresenting the words of others to preserve your fantasy.

So go ahead, provide cover for those who corrupt the faith you claim to defend. It's becoming obvious you're not interested in anything but hating Muslims.

By catastrophile, at 2:27 PM
Dan T,

"Well, I read what you wrote and I read what was in the original article (mostly bypassing the WND and ACLJ "reporting") and I didn't see any mention of them calling them "christians" but rather "rightwing extremists."

Your trust in the left side of the media is ignorant. It is the way facts are presented, andd what facts are not reported that have made the majority of Americans stop trusting teh MSM. By omitting the fact that the "right wing extremists" (which does not describe Muslim terrorists by the way) were conservative Christians who were offended by prayer not being allowed in school, the media outlets that reported the story in that fashion were omitting an important fact, and thus lying. Of course, you can choose to buy the left media reporting at full face value if you want, it's not an inteligent thing to do.

"Certainly the context was that these fictional folk considered themselves to be Christians. So what?"

I'll tell you "so what". They are traning children to belive that Christians are terrorists. Naturally, your limited ability to think that you have been demonstrating over the years makes you oblivious to this obvious fact.

"Well, if you read what I wrote, I stated specifically two times that I thought it was a poor idea for the school/police officials to have identified them thusly."

I also read where you denied that the terrorists were portrayed as Christians. Are you now saying that you actualy knew they were portarayed as Christians, but you denied it anyway? You are bringing your honesty into question again.

"I AM a Christian, saved by God's grace and committed to Jesus as the lord of my life"

Based on my experience with you, that is debatable.

"Would you rather deny my Christ and say "I'm not a Christian," when it's not the truth?"

Actually, I think you may be decieved. At least I would prefer to think you are decieved since the alternative, you being a liar on this subject, is not one I am qualified to discern, nor would I wish it. However, when someone who claims to be a Christian defends as many things that are against the Bible as you do, I tend to think that person is decieved.

Catastrophile,

"Trying to claim that any "terrorism" is caused by a particular faith is equally bigoted."

Unless you examione history and see an 1,600 year long history of virtually uninterupted war, violence, and terror. In that case one might want to consider that the religion that links everyone inthis 1,600 year long history may be responsible. Especially when an examination of that samew history reveals the founder of that religion did the exact same kind of thing.

"When it comes to flying off the handle and resorting to violence, no religion has a monopoly."

A more accurate statemoent would have been "no set of beliefs has a monopoly". I say this because the Atheist Communist governement have murdered many millions more peopl ethan any religion ever has, and posibly more than every religion ever has combined.

"When it comes to violent political acts committed on our soil, you're trying to deny the reality that Muslim terrorists account for approximately zero of the crimes committed every year"

Is that so? Apparently you forgot that the September 11th attacks wee not the first act of muslim terrorism on U.S. soil(unles you are one of the crazies who think the U.S. government is the real culprit). There was the first bombing of the WTC in the 90's, the many terrorists busted on U.S. solil in the last 5 years for doing such things as fundraising for terrorists, buying and attempting to but missles, the beltway snipers, and a few hundred other recent cases you can find with any casual search of the internet or FBI files.

"Now you're just making $#!+ up. Just because McVeigh or the Branch Davidians or the KKK or the IRA or the Phelpses or Pat Robertson or Jeffrey Daumer claim to be Christians doesn't mean I endorse their opinion."

None of what you just said has anything to do with my statement. I said that you believe that the portrayal of Christians that was presented in this terrorism drill is appropriate because you are defending it. I am not making that up, your entire responses here have been defending it.

By Daniel Levesque, at 11:28 PM
Daniel: "the beltway snipers"

So the beltway snipers qualify as Muslim terrorists, but the Columbine kids don't count as Christian terrorists? Interesting.

Daniel: "I said that you believe that the portrayal of Christians that was presented in this terrorism drill is appropriate"

And I pointed out that lots and lots of completely vile things have been done in this country by people who call themselves Christians and claim to be standing up for Christ and country, the same way Arab Muslim terrorists claim to be standing up for their people and God.

You're the one saying we have to take them at their word, not me. Extremists are by their very nature not representative of the culture that spawned them. That's why they're called extremists. If you refuse to understand that, that's your problem.

Daniel: "A more accurate statement would have been 'no set of beliefs has a monopoly'."

If you believe that, it's interesting that you completely ignored my statement that: "Terrorism is primarily a political tactic, by its very definition, not a religious one. It is employed by people who are politically radicalized, which often accompanies religious extremism."

This was the case with McVeigh, with Eric Rudolph, with David Koresh, with Osama bin Laden, and on and on and on.

By catastrophile, at 12:18 PM
"So the beltway snipers qualify as Muslim terrorists, but the Columbine kids don't count as Christian terrorists? Interesting."

Because the beltway snipers invoke Allah/Islam as their cause, the closestthink the columbine kids had to such a claim was gohic music, not Christianity. do try to learn the facts.

"And I pointed out that lots and lots of completely vile things have been done in this country by people who call themselves Christians and claim to be standing up for Christ and country,"

An I conceded that point, however, I also pointed he fact that there are exactly ZERO terrorist Organization in Amrica, and only one small one in the whole world while there are dozens of Muslim terrorists organizations worldwide with thousands of cells, tens or even hundreds of thousands of member, and tens,possibly hundreds of millions of supporters. All facts that you either deny or ignore in your mission to portray Christianity and Islam as being somehow equally bad, which is is a ridiculous notion when you actually examine the facts.

"Extremists are by their very nature not representative of the culture that spawned them."

You have obviously overlooked the facts that bring this statement into question regarding Islam. every single expert who has real life experience with Mulsim terrorist organizations in the Middle East says teh same thing: That the culture of the Muslim countries is the engine that drives the formation and growth of terrorist organizations. Many such cultural aspects that are credited with the growth and spread of terrorism can be directly linked to the national governments and major Muslim leaders and schools. This is why the goal of the Global War on Terror is to change Middle Eastern culture by bringing free democracy to the region in place of petty dictatorships and Muslim theocracies. Of course, if you had bothered to learn the facts instead of ignorantly believing the lies of the antiwar (Pro-terror?) crowd you would already know this.

"If you believe that, it's interesting that you completely ignored my statement that: "Terrorism is primarily a political tactic, by its very definition, not a religious one. It is employed by people who are politically radicalized, which often accompanies religious extremism."

Fine, here is how I addres that statement:

In many cases this is true, one has only to look atthe terrorist organizations that have no religious afiliation at all,like ALF and ELF to see this. In some case of religion this is also easily true, as is the case with the IRA. History provides many other examples as well.

HOWEVER:

Muslim terrorism has a diferent history. It wa first began by Mohammad himself when he employed terror tactics to make people fear his armies so that the places they invaded would be less inclined to fight back, thereby making military comquest in the name of Allah eaier to accomplish. The practice continues to this day. Now, there is a legitimate, thugh questionable argument to be made that Islam itself isn't really a religion, buy is actually as military movement that uses religion as the glue to bind its armies together. Considering how Islam has the bloodiest history of any religion by far there may be something to this argument. Jihad, or holy war is so important to Islam that it has teh dubious distinctionof being the only religion in the world that has incorporated rules for waging war into it's faith. Christianity teaches lessons like, "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" "Love thy enemies" and even tells a story of how God refused to let King David build Him a temple because he was a man of war and God would only allow a man of peace to build His temple. Islam onthe other hand teaches that jihad must be waged at all times. It teaches revenge on one's enemies. It tells Muslims how to wage war. Big difference.

There is also a big difference in the founders of each of these religions. Jesus Christ never waged war, never killed anyone, never lied, advocated leace and ove at all times, and the only violent episode in his life was whenhe drove merchants who were ripping peole off withthe help of the priesthood out of the temple with a bullwhip. There were no deaths. Mohammad waged constant war from the dayhe got enough followers to do so. He personally ordered genocides against various towns and villiages. He spoke of the pleasures of plunder. He lied, and even gave the doctrine that that says that the word of a Muslim is only binding if given to another Muslim. Not to mention any of teh myriad of other acts of violence and deception he engaged in and the many acts of oppression advocated in his teachings. Given this, Muslim terrorists are just doing the same thing Mohamma, the founder of their religion did. Anyone who does harm in the name of Jesus is doing the exact opposite of what Jesus did, who actually allowed himself to be beaten and killed rather than being a killer himself.

Given all of this, I am unwilling to claim that Muslim terrorists are politicallly radicalized deviants from their religion. However, if you want to make the cailm that your statement of political radicalization rather than religious institutions being reponsible for muslim terrorism is true because Islam itself is politically radical, I am willing to take your point under consideration.

By Daniel Levesque, at 10:11 AM
Daniel: "the beltway snipers invoke Allah/Islam as their cause"

Show me.

Daniel: "exactly ZERO terrorist Organization in America"

The Oklahoma City bombing and the 1996 Olympics bombing were linked to an American "Christian" terrorist organization very similar in nature to al-Qaeda. A couple members of the Westboro Baptist Church have been linked to the same "movement" -- but sure, if you choose to exclude the "Christian" terrorists who are out there, there are none.

Daniel: "the culture of the Muslim countries is the engine"

Yes, culture. Interesting thing, culture. An amalgam of religious, ethnic, economic, technological and political considerations.

Mightn't we go further and say it's Arab Muslims? Could we go further still and say it's authoritarian Arab Muslims with oppressive governments that Western governments have been glad to support as long as they keep that oil flowing?

Could we go even further and say that the governments who have done the most to further the strain of Arab Muslim extremism that serves as the engine driving the brand of terrorism you're focused on are finite and identifiable?

Could we then wonder why we're fighting in Iraq and supporting the oppressive Muslim governments of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Kuwait, places where the culture of terror incubates?

Culture. Excellent choice of words.

And because you've never been amongst the Phelpses and the McVeighs and the Christian Identity and the Klan, you assume that that culture isn't a threat somehow. But they're the ones you don't see coming.

So you're outraged at the suggestion that "rightwing extremists" might commit violence because they're not allowed to pray at school, because there's a suggestion that it could be somebody calling themself a Christian rather than somebody calling themself a Muslim.

Good. Fine. Have fun with that. But when it comes right down to it, the number of Muslims who have gone on shooting sprees in American schools is still . . . how many, again?

By catastrophile, at 6:32 PM
"Show me."

Read the news reports.

"The Oklahoma City bombing and the 1996 Olympics bombing were linked to an American "Christian" terrorist organization very similar in nature to al-Qaeda."

Name it. And by the way, Mcveigh didn't belong to any organization, just him and a couple like minded people who assisted him. He also did not invoke Christianity or Jesus as his motives. He cited Waco.

As for the Westboro Baptist Church, they are loud, annoying, and hateful, but to date their organized activities have all been peaceful, despite their atrocious perversion of Christianity into a religion of homosexual hatred.

"Mightn't we go further and say it's Arab Muslims?"

Would that we could, but as you would know if you were actually informed on this topic, one of the premier supporters and perpetrators of Muslim terrorism is Iran, and Iran is not an Arab nation, the people of Iran are Persians, and there is plenty of Arab/Persian strife as well.

"Yes, culture. Interesting thing, culture. An amalgam of religious, ethnic, economic, technological and political considerations."

And oddly enough, history shows that no culture rises above it's dominant religion. Do some research, your mind will be blown by the correlation. I also find it interestin gthe way you ingore the fact that I came out and specifically said that modern Muslim terorists are doing the same thing the founder of Islam,Mohammad did and that his followers have been doing continuously ever since. The culture that spawned Muslim terrorism is Muslim culture shaped primarily by Islam. Have you nothing to say about this, or are you just going to avoid it and try to claim the religion of Islam has nothing to do with Muslim terrorism?

"because you've never been amongst the Phelpses and the McVeighs and the Christian Identity and the Klan, you assume that that culture isn't a threat somehow."

I wasn't aware that you knew such intimate details of my life. I happen to have some personal experience with with one or two of the groups that you have named and quite well acquainted witht heir inner workings, not as a member, but through members whom I knew and disassociated myself from because of their blind hatred. Do not assume to know my personal life experiences, I am the way I am not through mere sheltered study. Real life experience did more to shape me than any academic pursuit. However, academics happen to cooborate my real life experience. Bear in mind that I was not always the way I am today, once I was remarkably similar to . . . you.

"when it comes right down to it, the number of Muslims who have gone on shooting sprees in American schools is still . . . how many, again?"

Exactly the same number as practicing born-again Christians: zero. Again, you assume that children of Christian parents are themselves Christian when this is frequently not the case. You also assume that everyone who calls themselves Christians actually go to Church more than once a year on Sundays and read the Bible. If this were true then there is no way half of all high school seniors would think that Soddom and Gamorrah were married considereing how significantly more than half of all high school seniors will also identify themselves as Christian. You realy must remember something when it comes to religion surveys, the dominant religion in a nation will ave many people who are not practicing followers of that faith, but are actually people who simply identify themselves as part of a certain faith simply because of their heritage. However, the Columbine kids do not even fit this category. During their rampage they specifically targeted several Christians, demanded that they reject Jesus, and shot them when the kids refused to reject their faith, including one former wiccan who had converted to Christianity mere months prior to the shootings. This is hardly the act of Christians. So again, do try not to make ignorant arguments since there can be no clearer proof of the Columbine kids NOT being Christians at all, much less Christian terrorists than the spefic targeting and murder of people for being Christians.

Also, in your comparisons you are demonstrating ignorance as to what constitutes terrorism. The columbine were murderers, but not terrorists. They had no religious or political agenda when they commited their atrocity. They were getting sick revenge for being mistreated by the other kids.

Givn this, let us examine your (untrue) claim that McVeigh was a Chritian terrorist, and compare it to Muslim terrorists. In the followinglist McVeigh will be referred to as MV, and Muslim terrorists shall be referred to as MT.

Engaged in terrorism to advance their faith:

MV- no
MT- yes

Believed their terrorist activities glorified their god:

MV- no
MT- yes

Motivated by religion:

MV- no
MT- yes

Motivated by politics:

MV- yes
MT- yes

Devout followers of a claimed faith:

MV- no
MT- yes

Claimed a religion of any kind:

MV- yes
MT- yes

So given this list, I would call McVeigh a political terrorist, and I would call teh Muslim terrorists religious terrorists.

No matter how hard you try you will not be able to use McVeigh as an indictment against the Christian faith to make Christians out to be as bad as Muslim terrorists. The facts just don't support it. To do so requires a combination of lies and ignorance. The same goes for the Columbine kids. There is more evidence that the columbine shootings were motivated by a combiation of goth music and social maltreatment than anything even resembling religion, and I'm not even willing to support the goth music part due to a lack of sufficient evidence in comparison to the social issues.

Facts are facts, and the facts support me while contradicting you.

By Daniel Levesque, at 1:29 AM
Daniel: "Read the news reports."

Believe it or not, I checked before I asked. I found references to one of them having once joined the Nation of Islam and expressing admiration for terrorists who attack the US Government, but the snipers seem to have been motivated by some kind of ransom plot, not religion.

Daniel: "Name it. And by the way, Mcveigh didn't belong to any organization, just him and a couple like minded people who assisted him."

By your definition, I suppose al-Qaeda isn't actually an "organization" either.

Daniel: "one of the premier supporters and perpetrators of Muslim terrorism is Iran"

That depends on how you define "premier" -- and you also assume that their actions are primarily religious, as opposed to political. You don't think the Iran-Syria-Hezbollah nexus is about political power?

The world's largest Muslim nation is Indonesia. Why aren't Indonesian Muslims landing on our shores and blowing us up? Statistically speaking, if the religion is the problem, you'd think they'd figure more prominently . . .

Daniel: "I also find it interesting the way you ingore the fact that I came out and specifically said that modern Muslim terorists are doing the same thing the founder of Islam, Mohammad did and that his followers have been doing continuously ever since."

I'm letting this pass because I think a debate over the long and bloody histories of every major faith would be a diversion from the topic here. Like I said, I know what you believe. I'm taking issue with your argument that there's no valid reason to be worried about rightwing extremists who call themselves Christians.

And speaking of that:

Daniel: "Exactly the same number as practicing born-again Christians: zero. Again, you assume that children of Christian parents are themselves Christian when this is frequently not the case."

I assume no such thing. I've been saying the exact opposite, but you insist on running in circles. Plenty of crazies go out claiming they're doing God's work. Many of them do violence and claim it's what Jesus wants them to do.

Plenty more are simply crazy and claim to be a part of the religion they were raised in. They believe it, too.

But when it comes to people who do violence for political ends, they could come from any ideology at all.

Daniel: "I happen to have some personal experience with with one or two of the groups that you have named and quite well acquainted with their inner workings, not as a member, but through members whom I knew and disassociated myself from because of their blind hatred."

Then how can you deny they exist?

Daniel: "to make Christians out to be as bad as Muslim terrorists"

I'm beginning to suspect you have a bit of a persecution complex.

Arguing that the amount of Christian terrorism is greater than ZERO is the same thing as "making Christians out to be as bad as Muslim terrorists" to you?

Yikes.

By catastrophile, at 5:00 PM
"you also assume that their actions are primarily religious, as opposed to political."

Iran IS a thoecracy run by Mullahs. I do not deny political motivations, but I also assert the politics of the leadership of that nation are motivated by their religion.

"I'm taking issue with your argument that there's no valid reason to be worried about rightwing extremists who call themselves Christians."

Worry yourself needlessly about the wrong people if you want to. What I am asserting is that there is exponentionally more violence being committed in the name of Allah than every other diety in the world combined. Also, I find the left-wing extremists to be more dangerous than most right-wing extremists. Either way, extremists of any kind pose a potential danger. What I am taking exception to i this case is that conservative Christians were portrayed as extremists, which is simply untrue. The only people who think conservative Christians are extremists are left-wing extremists who want to see Christianity destroyed. I am upset about the left-wing lie being presented in this excersize. If you agree with the lie that conservative Christians are extremists who are to be feared then you have just identified yourself as a left-wing extremist, and therefore one to be watched.

"when it comes to people who do violence for political ends, they could come from any ideology at all."

Agreed, sickos can choose any justification they want for their evil deeds. However, due to the fact that Muslims are committing exponentially more violence and evil in the world than every other religion combined, it is simply more honest to use muslim terrorists, lie al-quaida, hezbollah, hamas, the muslim brotherhood, and others as terrorists than it is to present Christians as terrorists when we have no Christian terrorist groups in the U.S., and only one in the world. Admittedly, there are hate groups who try to use the Bible as justification for hate, a few even masquerade as religious groups, such as the Christian Identity movement and the Westboro Baptists Church. However, to date none have engaged in terrorism of any kind.

"Then how can you deny they exist?"

Did I deny they exist? No. I simply stated the fact these groups are not Christian groups, nor are they terrorist groups, athough the KKK was one at one time. Speaking of the KKK, it remains as it always has been in one fashion, it is dominated by Democrats.

"Arguing that the amount of Christian terrorism is greater than ZERO is the same thing as "making Christians out to be as bad as Muslim terrorists" to you?"

I repeat, assuming your statement to be true, Muslim terrorists outnumebr terrorists of every other religion in the world combined many times over. Muslim terrorists are also the only ones known to date to enter schools and commit terrorists acts. I am not denying that non-Muslims have done this, because they have, but these people did not belong to terrorist groups, they were one or two individuals at a time who decided to commit an actof pure evil. Portraying conservative Christians as terrorists is a dangerous lie designed to defame Christians and make people frightened of us. It's as simple as that.

"I'm beginning to suspect you have a bit of a persecution complex."

I do not. However, even a casual study of persecution worldwide shows that the two most persecuted groups of people in the world today by numbers of people persecuted are Christians and Jews, in that order. By percentage of population that is being persecuted the two most persecuted groups of people in the world are Jews and Christians, in that order. And who are the primary persecutors of people inthe world? Communists and Muslims, in that order.

By Daniel Levesque, at 5:44 PM
Daniel: "I simply stated the fact these groups are not Christian groups, nor are they terrorist groups, athough the KKK was one at one time."

You said there are no acts of terror being done by people who invoke Christ. In your eagerness to hate and revile Muslims, you completely deny the existence those who corrupt your own faith for their political ends.

By catastrophile, at 10:04 PM
"you completely deny the existence those who corrupt your own faith for their political ends."

Incorrect, I call them non-Christian. I also never denied that there are people who use Christianity for political ends. I also expressed very clearly that that some crimes have been committed in the name of God, but no acts of terrorism have other than those committed by the IRA, which is in Ireland, not America. Also stated the fact that muslim terrorists and acts of violence in the name of Allah far outnumber similar acts performed for the sake of every other religion in the world combined.

I also have maintained the truth of my core argument that the because the only organized terrorist groups in the world that are targeting schools are Muslim ones, it is simply more honest to have school terrorism excersizes portray Muslim terrorists. I also stand by my core argument that portraying conservative Christians as terrorists is a defamatory lie. I also stand by my core argument that the motivation for such a defamatory lie is a liberal desire to see Christianity destroyed because it thretens to prevent the vast negative social changes liberals want to impose upon America, and it is doing so peacefully and with great potency. I also deny the existence of any known terrorist group in America claiming a Christian theology.

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By Anonymous, at 5:31 AM

Raving Conservative

Thursday, April 05, 2007

Hyppocrisy and Bigotry

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