So Much for Peace in Palestine
It’s official. Hamas, a notorious terrorist organization now has its own country. They have taken 76 seats of the Palestinian Parliament, that’s 57%, a clear majority, with the nearly as bad Fatah Party holding another 35%. If Palestine were officially recognized as a sovereign state it would easily top the list of terrorist nations.
Hamas ran on a party platform of the destruction of Israel and the wiping out or driving the Jews from the land. Palestinians voted overwhelmingly for this course of action.
This just proves what I and other realists have been saying all along.
Palestine will never allow peace with Israel to become a reality.
I have called for full military, diplomatic, and economic support of Israel in the past. I do so again now wit renewed vigor. The way the world has succored Palestine in spite of the evil deeds of that rogue terrorist camp of a faux nation has not served the cause of peace, but has actually fostered greater violence and the spread of terrorism.
Palestine has spoken. It will never accept a peaceful coexistence with Israel. The only response remaining now is to drive the Palestinians from the land, to scatter them among the Muslim nations, and return the land to the Israelis who have steadily given it up in a vain hope for peace.
Already the liberal supporters of Palestine here in the US are demanding patience, demanding that we give the terrorist group Hamas a chance to work peacefully with Israel. These people are one of two things, deluded or rabid anti-Semites who want to see Israel destroyed as much as Hamas does. Do not listen to their lies. We know the truth because we have been assaulted by it steadily for decades. To deny it is folly and invites war and destruction on a vast scale. Unfortunately, at this point, to do the right thing could have the exact same consequence.
Such is the dilemma we force upon ourselves when we refuse to deal decisively with terrorists.
Hamas ran on a party platform of the destruction of Israel and the wiping out or driving the Jews from the land. Palestinians voted overwhelmingly for this course of action.
This just proves what I and other realists have been saying all along.
Palestine will never allow peace with Israel to become a reality.
I have called for full military, diplomatic, and economic support of Israel in the past. I do so again now wit renewed vigor. The way the world has succored Palestine in spite of the evil deeds of that rogue terrorist camp of a faux nation has not served the cause of peace, but has actually fostered greater violence and the spread of terrorism.
Palestine has spoken. It will never accept a peaceful coexistence with Israel. The only response remaining now is to drive the Palestinians from the land, to scatter them among the Muslim nations, and return the land to the Israelis who have steadily given it up in a vain hope for peace.
Already the liberal supporters of Palestine here in the US are demanding patience, demanding that we give the terrorist group Hamas a chance to work peacefully with Israel. These people are one of two things, deluded or rabid anti-Semites who want to see Israel destroyed as much as Hamas does. Do not listen to their lies. We know the truth because we have been assaulted by it steadily for decades. To deny it is folly and invites war and destruction on a vast scale. Unfortunately, at this point, to do the right thing could have the exact same consequence.
Such is the dilemma we force upon ourselves when we refuse to deal decisively with terrorists.
posted by Daniel Levesque at
7:26 PM
29 Comments:
And yet they did it democratically. Does that mean we're only for democracy if the people there vote the way we want them to?
By
Wasp Jerky, at 8:52 PM
And what exactly shall we do? Kill all Palestinians? What exactly are you calling for?
By
Dan Trabue, at 2:33 AM
Dan T,
You don't pay attention very well do you? In the body of this post I stated that we need to banish them from the land, not kill them all.
Wasp Jerky,
Democracy or not, Hamas is an enemy of the US and Israel. They are a TERRORIST group that is on our hit list, and has been for years. The purpose of the US backed UN democracy initiative in Palestine was to try to create a peceful nation. This has failed, and bloodshed has been promised by the new regime. Would you really sit back and do nothing? Remember, Hitler was democratically elected too.
By
Daniel Levesque, at 6:01 AM
My fault. There it is in b/w, your proposal: Dispersion. I apologize for my poor listening skills.
Then my response is which Palestinians will you disperse? Everyone of them? Or just the Hamas supporters?
Is there a legal basis in Israeli law to do so? Would a law have to be passed?
Hamas-supported terrorism is a problem, as is terrorism whoever supports it. I'm just cautious about knee jerk responses, especially ones not founded in legal bases.
I have no idea what Israeli law looks like, I am in favor of all of us following rules.
In a similar vein, what could those of us who believe Bush guilty of state-supported terrorism do to get his cabinet dispersed to wherever his type would go? If we can do so legally, I'm fully in support of it (but I'd just want to do so for the leadership and not all supporters, unless they continued to support violence as solution)...
By
Dan Trabue, at 6:30 AM
Yes, but democracy is supposed to bring peace and is supposed to cure terrorism. At least that's what the Bush administration seems to believe.
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Wasp Jerky, at 7:45 AM
Which Palestinians would I disperse? All of them. The Pakestinian culture itself it what is fostering this widespread support of terrorism.
Regarding the legality of the proposed action, the Geneva convention, which is the international law of war, does not frobid dispersion. Therfore, such an act is legal according to the legally binding treaties most of the civilized world has signed and abides by.
The true problem with dispersion is the root problem that caused the whole Palestine problem in the first place. The rest of the Arab world is using the people as a pawn against Isreal and are uncharitable toward them.
By
Daniel Levesque, at 8:11 AM
"Therfore, such an act is legal according to the legally binding treaties"
And what of Israeli law? Can they just choose to ship out multitudes of innocent civilians? I honestly don't know, but aren't palestinians citizens of Israel or at least covered under Israeli law? I'm guessing that it would be illegal under Israel's law to simply ship people out, but as I said, I don't really know.
I mean, the US couldn't just choose to ship the Cherokee, for instance, off to Liberia, could we?
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Dan Trabue, at 8:22 AM
How is hamas going to harm you by throwing stones at you?? By blowing up the world with homemade concoction of bombs?? You must be ignorant to the fact that the guns that hamas holds in their hands are given to them by the Israeli's themselves... And that Israel is the one with nucleur weapons that can turn on the USA with a push of a button.
I want you to go through the humiliation of walking through checkpoints everyday to go to work, while soldiers badger you and point guns at you to get a laugh at your expense because you are afraid... What the hell do you know...
and by the way CHRISTIAN PALESTINIANS live here too... and they are treated with the same disrespect so please stop refering to all palestinians as muslims.
By
Anonymous, at 12:30 PM
Interesting stuff - I wonder if you're proposing the Final Solution of the Palestinian problem - how are you defining 'Palestinians'? Where will they go to? Enormous refugee camps in Syria & Lebanon perhaps where they can be used by far nastier governments as justification for the eradication of Israel - thereby achieving Hamas' agenda. Life really isn't that simple is it.
By
Steve Middleton, at 12:47 PM
You have both just pointed out the complications that I have glossed over in this post. It is true that the general population is not 100% unified in the actons and beliefs of the majority, and it is true that banished Palestinians aould likely just keep doing what they are doing from their new homes.
I must confess that in my mind the word "Palestinian" refers primarily to the Arab Muslim spratists who make up the majority of the Palestinian population. I also understand that that Palestinians are actually Israeli citizens, but that makes them traitors and rebels too. The complications and details of ending the faux state of Palestine could fill a book, but it is doable, and it should be done. However, it should be done by the Israeli's wih the US only acting in a supporting role and only if asked.
By
Daniel Levesque, at 3:29 PM
How is Palestine a faux country?
By
Anonymous, at 3:07 AM
Palestine is a Faux country because every last bit of it is actually a part of the nation of Israel that has been overrun by Muslim sepratists and terrorists who desire their own country to replace Israel. It also does not have any official recognition as an individual nation anywhere in the world, which is why the so-called "roadmap to peace" involves eventually granting Palestine official statehood. For now, all Palestinians are officially citizens of Israel. Hence, Palestine is NOT a country, therefore it is a Faux nation of rebels and sepratists.
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Daniel Levesque, at 8:21 AM
So is it a faux nation like the Cherokee or other tribal people in the US who were taken over by someone else? Faux in that sense?
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Dan Trabue, at 12:05 PM
No. Faux in the sense that they were not taken over and legally granted the land in the first place. They are nothing but land thieves motivated by typical Muslim hatred of al Jews.
By
Daniel Levesque, at 7:09 AM
I am astounded by the lack of knowledge of this region. When Israel became an independent nation in 1948, it was attacked by numerous nations. These same nations told the indiginous Arabs to flee, and they would wipe Israel off the map, then they could have the whole pie. Problem was, they lost to an outgunned and out manned Israel, that was interested in peace and nationhood. After that, the West Bank became part of Jordan, and the Gaza became part of Egypt. These territories were occupied by Israel after the 1967 war. These folks are not Israeli citizens. There are Israeli Arab citizens, they live in Israel proper.
Israel will now begin to further isolate itself from the so called Palestinians (a term recently invented), until both the Fatah and Hamas charters renounce their primary goal, which is the destruction of Israel. It is written in the charter of both organizations. Amazing how pacifists and leftists call the nation that was attacked repeatedly, the terrorists, or the current administration in the USA to be terrorists. It does not wash with people who really understand the realities of this region.
Another reality, is that due to hatred for Israel and corruption by Fatah leaders, the Palestinian state had been going no where. I am glad that Palestininans were able to vote their conscience. We will have to take a wait and see attitude for now, but I am reminded of how a democratic election can lead to dictatorship. Nazi Germany and Facsist Italy are two examples.
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Rick's Corner, at 1:19 PM
Terrorism is an inexcusable evil of course and I am not trying to justify it ...
Demorcacy is a good thing? This is what Bush and his cronies keep saying about the places they invade, sorry, help, isn't it? So now that Palestine has voted democratically it turns out they don't want to take America's side (and be nice to America's Isreali buddies) in their democratic new rule?
Bugger!
It's the same problem as Iran having nuclear capability being a terrible thing but it's alright for China as America likes them a bit more than they like Iran. And they're not Muslim. And there's no oil in or around there.
Terrorism still sucks, the problem of Palestine and Israel is not easy to solve. Both sides have been hating each other for so long that it's totally ingrained in their culture now. Israel doesn't want to give back the stolen land, Palestinians are treated like second class citizens and blow up innocent Israeli civillians. Israel retaliates with armed force. Palestine sends out some more suicide bombers...
Vicious circle.
I cannot imagine how terrible it must be to live there.
America's a big place. Got any spare land? :-)
By
DanProject76, at 2:13 PM
Democracy is a good thing.(Just on a side note, I'd be highly suspicious of those election results.) But a Democratically-elected fascist system doesn't equal Democracy.
So now that Palestine has voted democratically it turns out they don't want to take America's side (and be nice to America's Isreali buddies)
They can hate Israel all they want. But this is Hamas. The people who recruit suicide bombers and have them blow up buses and then make heroes out of them. There's quite a difference between someone who doesn't want to be "nice" and a brutal terrorist organization.
By
Rebekah, at 3:33 PM
Whoa, whoa. Stolen land! Israel stole land from who? This is what I meant when I spoke of the lack of knowledge in this region. Israel has control over these territories due to being the victor after it was attacked. It did not unilaterally invade these lands.
Bush and his cronies invaded Palestine? What planet are you on?
As far as election results, I guess we will have to wait to see how this plays out. The Palestine Arabs want a country of their own, they may just get it. Now they have to really govern. They should pray that they don't plan to attack Israel and that now Israel can fight back without their hands tied behind their backs.
Ms Wasp Jerkey, we're for whatever voters want in a democracy provided they keep democratic.
BTW libs, let me know how happy you are about Iran and North Korea having nukes as compared to India, France or Pakistan. When living in the land of reality, holding up the peace sign and going to Woodstock and mumbling platitudes doesn't cut it. Established free nations have to keep the moral high ground and often take tough stances. There really are bad guys out there and we have to make choices.
By
Rick's Corner, at 5:05 PM
Rick is absolutely right. It's obvious he knows the region and the history of the region. He is also exactly right about the ignorance regarding a good number of comments on this post.
Excellent post, Daniel... which is what I have learned to expect from you.
By
Gayle, at 6:47 PM
I will never admit to being correct all of the time, and thank Gayle for her remarks. It just gets me going when Israel is labeled an aggressor nation. Colonial, etc.
Israel has a democratically elected parliamentarian form of government. It is not perfect. They make stupid mistakes like all nations do.
They choose to live in peace if their neighbors will be peaceful too. Most of their neighbors do not choose peace. Often this is to keep monarchies or oligarchies in power by scape goating the Jews and Israel as the enemy. Read my post that quotes Dennis Miller, as he explains the middle east situation with humor and easy to understand language.
For the libs, until Pres Bush 43, the USA foreign policy tried to be even handed in approaching the region. Still better than most of the rest of the world that tilts in favor of the Arab states. Since Arafat would not take the unbelievable offer during the Clinton years, most Western nations in private know the Fatah regime was corrupt and without real legitimacy, even if they won't say or admit it publically. This President wants peacefull solutions, but tilts to the Israeli side since it really does want a peacefull solution in the long run.
It is easier to choose the side of the Arabs for most governments. Israel has no oil.
By
Rick's Corner, at 3:51 AM
Rick,
thanks for all the history. My question remains though: Do the Palestinians have rights under Israeli law? CAN Israel just choose to ship them all off?
I don't know the answer to that, but I'm guessing not. Anyone here know?
And Rick, to answer your question: I am not happy about any of the nations you mentioned, nor the US, having nuclear weaponry.
I agree with the Catholic Church, the Pope, the National Council of Churches and Albert Einstein whose genius helped lead to them in the first place, that such weaponry is immoral, damned stupid and a threat to humanity and ought to be done away with.
By
Dan Trabue, at 4:37 AM
Dan T,
There is no law anywhere in the world banning banishment, which is what the dispersion I have proposed equates to.
By
Daniel Levesque, at 6:05 AM
One can not banish a peoples from the US indiscriminately, I'd bet that Israel law would be similar in this regards.
I mean, I'm right, aren't I? The US could not choose to deport all palestinians from our shores for no reason, could we? I guess it might come down to how Palestinian rights are defined under Israeli law.
Rick suggested that they were not Israeli citizens, but is that the case? What is their status in Israel?
By
Dan Trabue, at 7:30 AM
You've hit an area that I am not as knowledgeable on. The territories occupied after the 6 Day War, Israel does not want to keep as part of its own land. Gaza and the West Bank. The Palestinians want their own nation, and Israel would rather have a peacefull neighbor and not have to rule these folks.
I don't know what their rights are. They are currently an autonomous land ruled until now by the Palestinian Authority. Israel is like the USA with conservatives and liberals, and there is constant vigilance of looking out for their rights, and also the rights of others such as the Palestinians. Israeli soldiers have been convicted of committing crimes against Palestinians. How or what their actual status of rights are under the PA, I don't know, but will be happy to find out, and report in one of my posts soon.
I must also tell you that the constant vigil by many people on the political left of making statemtents about the Bush Adm being responsible for state sponsored terrorism are advancing conservatism more than hurting it. Most mainstream people recognize the inherent extremism in these type of things. We are not a nation of extremism, but unfortunately that is what is carrying the day on the Political left currently. My advice, come up with a new mainstream set of politics that register with the voters. What you folks are doing now has greatly hurt the Democrat party.
By
Rick's Corner, at 10:29 AM
"What you folks are doing now has greatly hurt the Democrat party."
I'm more of a Green Party guy myself, or an Independent and am not particularly concerned about hurting the Dems, for what it's worth. Having said that, I'd suggest that from where YOU sit, we're hurting the Dems.
From where I sit, the Dems are only hurting themselves when they act like Republicans Lite. There is a HUGE group of folk out there who don't vote, turned off by having no real choices or because they believe the system is corrupt.
As soon as a candidate or part can distinguish themselves as being honorable, honest, unbeholden to special interests, THAT candidate or party will begin to rouse the great disinterested public.
I know of NO Dems or Liberals turned off by the Democratic Party being too liberal or progressive. I know of many turned off by the current direction that both parties are heading in.
At least that's how it looks from here.
By
Dan Trabue, at 12:13 PM
A thoughtful answer.
Please make sure you vote for the Green Party in the next elections. The're too much on the wrong fringe for me. I like to vote for someone who I think has a chance of winning. I'd fit more for the Libertarians, but they too have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.
You're a nice guy, so I won't be a wise guy and tell you in Nov to vote on Wednesday.
By
Rick's Corner, at 1:38 PM
I sometimes vote Green, when I've a Green choice. More often than not, there is no choice and I'll tend to vote Dem.
Now this last Presidential race, I was VERY excited that there were at least two viable (from my point of view) candidates: Carol Moseley Braun and Dennis Kucinich. Unfortunately, we know how far they made it.
Same problem for the Libertarians: The system is set up to encourage only two parties and two parties that are pretty similar, at that. I'd love to see us move to IRV or Proportional Representation, something to break the stranglehold the Two have on politics.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you find out about Palestinian rights and status in Israel.
By
Dan Trabue, at 3:09 PM
According to an article i read in "Israel My Glory" a publication of the friends of Israel that I subscribe to, here is the status of the Palestinians.
When the 6 Day war was over Israel offered all occupants of the newly acquired land full citezenship as an act of peace and reconciliation. At the same time the Arab nations were telling all Muslims to get out and become refugees in the neighboring lands so they wouldn't be in the way when they sent an invincible into Isrreal and wiped out the Jews residing there. The end result is 40+ years of refugee camps in the neighboring countries, Palestine, and no invincible Army to date, bu tplenty of hostilities and terrorism.
By
Daniel Levesque, at 6:29 AM
It seems unclear to me the legal status of Palestinians, or it seems the answer is, "it depends..."
From b'tselem website:
Palestinians hold the status of "permanent resident" of the State of Israel. This is the same status granted to foreign citizens who have freely chosen to come to Israel and want to live there. Israel treats Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem as immigrants, who live in their homes at the beneficence of the authorities and not by right. The authorities maintain this policy although these Palestinians were born in Jerusalem, lived in the city, and have no other home…
Permanent residency differs substantially from citizenship. The primary right granted to permanent residents is to live and work in Israel without the necessity of special permits.
=====
for what it's worth.
By
Dan Trabue, at 11:23 AM
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