Raving Conservative: Gotta Love That Islam

Tuesday, February 07, 2006

Gotta Love That Islam

Islam is rearing its ugly, violent head once again. This time it is in response to some Danish cartoons that are a satire of the violent self martyrdom common to Islam.

Considering how sympathetic liberals are to Islam, and how opposed many liberals are to Christianity, and how opposed the rest of the liberals are to conservative Christianity, I thought I would draw a few comparisons.

1: When people insult Mohammad, legions of Muslims rise up to riot, pillage, and murder.

When People insult Jesus, Christians generally take it in stride, partly because Jesus preached a great deal about love and peace, and partly because Jesus warned us that the world would hate Him, and hate us for following Him.

2: We are now in the 15th century of Muslim Jihad.

The Crusades ended over 600 years ago, and were initiated as a response to the Muslim Jihad in the first place.

3: When Muslims want to enact political change violence tends to follow.

When Christians want to enact political change we speak out peacefully and vote.

4: Mohammad preached a convert or die message.

Jesus preached a love thy neighbors and thy enemies message.

5: Islam oppresses women.

Women are free in Christian nations.

6: The only government-sponsored sexual slavery of women and young girls is in the world is in Muslim nations.

Christians are currently fighting to end the aforementioned slavery.

7: Osama Bin-Laden kills people in the name of his God.

Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and the rest of US Christian leadership has not killed anyone, and only 1 time has it been suggested that it would be in our nation’s (not our religion’s) best interests to kill anyone.

8: Muslims generally support terrorists and terrorism.

Christians generally oppose the KKK, Skinheads, Neo-Nazis, and every other hate group in existence, as well opposing terrorists.

9: There is no free speech in any Muslim country in the world today, or historically.

America is 80-90% Christian. We have, and universally value free speech.

I could go on for days about the stark contrasts between Christianity and Islam, but I will stop here.

Considering the actions of these two religions, it is incomprehensible that Liberals, who spend so much time talking about peace, equality, and freedom of speech would be so friendly to Islam while bashing Christianity at the same time.

It seems to me that liberals assault Christianity because we value ALL human life, including the unborn and the disabled whom many liberals would just as soon kill (abortion and euthanasia), and stand by traditional Biblical morals that they want done away with in favor of a humanistic, liberalized society.

What I don’t get is why so many liberals love Islam when Islam is the antithesis to everything liberals say they stand for. Islam has no respect for life. Islam has no respect for human rights. Islam does not allow free speech, and even calls for the death of any who “insult the Prophet”. Islam abuses the death penalty to a frightening extreme. Islam engages in a great deal of inhumane behavior. Liberals want free love and open sexuality, but Islam calls for the death of all women (not men) who have sex outside of marriage (it’s always the woman’s fault, even if she was raped according to Islam).

So why do so many Liberals love Islam? It can’t be because it is aligned with their stated values. It should be impossible to be a liberal and be sympathetic to Islam, and yet it is the conservatives who are the ones standing against this violent and oppressive religion.

Want more? In the last year there have been two major incidences of Muslim riots in Europe, where Muslims flow unchecked into the population. Name just one Christian riot in the US in the last 50, then 100, then 150, then 200 years. Can you even name one riot that was motivated purely by Christian outrage?

Open your eyes people. Christianity is not the enemy. Islam however . . .

41 Comments:

You're so right, Daniel. Islam is NOT a religion of peace, and I for one will not consider it as such unless mainstream Muslims take a stand against terrorism and violence. Great post.

By MJ, at 8:53 AM
The MSM and other liberals cannot support Christianity without needing to conform to the laws of God. They cannot do that and continue the lives they lead.

By juanitagf, at 9:38 AM
Can we NOT just condemn the violent without condemning all Muslims?

Yes, they are over-reacting. Yes, the behavior of some Muslims is horrible. Yes, we believe that free speech is to be upheld and, yes, we ought to be considerate when dealing with sacred cows and YES, if someone mocks our sacred cow, we should not resort to violence.

But this is true for us all. It is not a uniquely Muslim problem.

And the first editorial I read this morning was from a local muslim calling for level-headedness and reasonableness amongst Muslims.

By Dan Trabue, at 9:40 AM
http://furrsbigblog.blogspot.com/

By Anonymous, at 11:13 AM
The thing is, Dan, not SOME Muslims, but MOST Muslims are extreme. It gets pretty hard not to condemn Muslims when I see no Muslim leaders stepping up to condemn terror, and some even encouraging the rioting. Not to mention the fact that most, if not all majority Muslim countries are violent theocracies.

By Rebekah, at 11:14 AM
Rebekah said:
" The thing is, Dan, not SOME Muslims, but MOST Muslims are extreme. "

Keep in mind that words have meanings. Unless you have some survey, poll or some evidence to back up your statement, I don't think you can logically claim that "most" muslims are "extreme" - whatever that means.

And, as I reported, a Muslim leader in my paper today took the violent muslims to task. So, Muslims ARE stepping up and condemning the violence.

By Dan Trabue, at 11:34 AM
rebekah: Not to mention the fact that most, if not all majority Muslim countries are violent theocracies.

I think you need to back up this statement with evidence as well, rebekah. From the information I’ve found, there are 47 countries in the world where Muslims make up more than 50% of the population and, of those, I can see only 17 that I would describe as “violent theocracies”. Please show us how you came to your conclusion.

I see once again, Daniel, that you are making the point that at least one religion causes harm, even violence and death.

Daniel: Christianity is not the enemy. Islam however . . .

Certainly, promoting ignorance is not as bad as promoting violence, but why can’t we seek a remedy to both?

By Anonymous, at 12:10 PM
In response to Dan T's qurie about statistics, I have stats from a survey done in the last 2 years, I forget the exact source, but I believe I first read it on the Fox News website.

In the survey some 65% of Muslims approved of the actions of terrorists.

In another survey something closer to 80% of Muslims voiced an overt hatred of Jews and desired to see the destruction of Israel in favor of a new Palestine that encompasses the entire nation.

I really need to start keeping records of my information sources. It would squash the ineveitable argument of "who first said it" so many critics resort to rather than bothering to actually verify anything for themselves.

By Daniel Levesque, at 12:27 PM
Remember that Rebekah is 16 years of age and does a remarkable job of keeping up with politics, as does her twin sister, Mary Ann. I'm so proud of them both!

I do agree with her that there isn't enough of an outcry from Muslims in general - or if there is - the MSM isn't reporting it!

You bring up many good points in this post Daniel.

Dan Trabue said: " YES, if someone mocks our sacred cow, we should not resort to violence.
But this is true for us all. It is not a uniquely Muslim problem."

I'm sorry, but I disagree with that statement vehemently!
Atheists have been attacking Christians in this country for decades, attempting to take Christianity out of all public functions. I can't remember one single instance of a Christian beheading an Atheist!

By Gayle, at 4:00 PM
No, Miss Gayle, no Christian has beheaded an atheist. But some people claiming to be Christians have doubtless killed folk that offended their sense of Christianity.

And I know for a fact that folk claiming to be Christians have made threats of violence and death toward those who offend their sense of Christianity because I've been the target of such threats.

By Dan Trabue, at 4:52 PM
Daniel: Can you even name one riot that was motivated purely by Christian outrage?

Okay, here’s one from 2004. This is not in the US, I admit, but it is a riot motivated purely by Christian outrage nonetheless.

By the way, they were Danish cartoons, not Dutch.

By Anonymous, at 4:58 PM
There are idiots in every society, Dan. But it's not the norm for Christians as it is for Eastern Muslims. There is a gargantuan difference.

I'm not going to comment on this here any further. Instead, I'm going to post about it.

By Gayle, at 5:02 PM
And just so you know, Daniel, my e-mail is down. I can receive, but I can't send. I found this out when I tried to send you an e-mail. And I can't confront this problem tommorrow either as I will be gone all day repairing other people's computers! Oh, the irony! :(

By Gayle, at 7:23 PM
CJB,

Error fixed, thank sfor pointing it out.

Also, I just had to chuckle a bit when I noticed that Muslims were the other half of that riot you linked to. I also noted that th eriot itself was not rligious in nature, but began as a reaction to a crime (well, not as far as Muslims are concerned since women are nothing but baby factories to Muslims in that region), and escalted from there. I am not justifying anything, the violence was wrong, but this is a far cry from rioting over someone insulting your religion in some way. Oh yeah, and it was over the day it started, unlike the last 2 Muslim riots in Europe which dragged on for days to weeks. good one though. Can you find anything say . . . in a country where the Muslim majority are not acting as steady antagonists that isn't Ireland? Let's face it, the protestant/Catholic situation in Northern Ireland is just bizzarre, and I condemn it personally, as do most Christians.

By Daniel Levesque, at 12:11 AM
Keep in mind that the KKK, for the most part, IS a nominally Christian organization. In their minds, anyway.

Is that the norm in Christianity? No.

But are terrorists the norm in Muslim? Again, I'd say no.

Is it a worse problem in the Muslim world than the Christian world? Yes, probably so - at least it seems that way. I'm just saying it's not uniquely so.

What we ought to be concerned about as loving Christians and as world citizens, is WHY it seems like so many muslims are acting out so violently.

The easy answer is to say, "Well, muslim must be a religion of violence." But the easy answer is rarely right.

We might consider what makes us willing to commit acts of terror such as bombing cities where we know civilians live (You may not consider Hiroshima an act of terrorism, but it certainly was an act of terror).

We have done so when we're desperate and didn't know what else to do - when no other answers seem like they're working and, yes, when we've been taught that violence is an acceptable answer by our religion or by our society.

By Dan Trabue, at 3:30 AM
Plus the riot was started because a Muslim was taking pictures of a woman changing with out her knwledge. The riot wasn't started over offending christian beliefs it was over a guy being a peeping tom.

By Dr. Phat Tony, at 3:56 AM
Daniel and dr. phat tony,

You are correct in saying that the riot wasn’t because Christians had their religious beliefs challenged. However, does either of you really think there would have been rioting if the peeping tom had been another Christian? I highly doubt it. Who would the Christians riot against, all Christians because the peeping tom was a Christian? Of course they wouldn’t. They rioted against Muslims because the peeping tom happened to be a Muslim, which is why I think this is an example of a riot caused by Christian outrage—Christian outrage against Muslims. It’s just another example of religious violence.

I did think of the situation in Northern Ireland after my last post and I’m glad you’ve brought it up, Daniel. There is a situation where Christians are fighting even each other that seems to be religiously motivated. Of course, you can discount this as merely an anomaly if you like. After all, Christians don’t fight people because of their religious beliefs, do they? That just wouldn’t be… well, Christian.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not denying that Islam is causing more harm than Christianity right now. So what is your solution to this problem? Do we do nothing and hope that they will go away? Do we try to reason with them? Do we all convert to Islam? Or do we just wipe them out? What do you suggest we do?

By Anonymous, at 4:33 AM
Those are indeed the pertinent questions to ask, cjb. What will we do with the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world?

Decide that Muslim is an evil religion and try to wipe enough of them out that the rest realize the foolishness of their ways and repent seems to be what you're hinting at, but I'm not sure if we really want to do that. I'd be interested in your answer.

By Dan Trabue, at 5:19 AM
"Where are the Muslim voices of reason?"

From the AP:
"Islam says it's all right to demonstrate but not to resort to violence. This must stop," said senior cleric Mohammed Usman, a member of the Ulama Council — Afghanistan's top Islamic organization. "We condemn the cartoons but this does not justify violence. These rioters are defaming the name of Islam."

By Dan Trabue, at 6:49 AM
Dan T,

Not only is violence a worse problem in the Muslim communites, it is an exponentially worse problem, and, as I have already pointed out, is accepted and supported my a large majority of Muslims worldwide. The KKK, and other groups like it, are almost universally condemned in the Christian world. HUGE difference in basic philosophy between the two religions, just plain huge. Also, do try to remember that we are now in the second half of the SECOND MILLENIUM OF NONSTOP JIHAD!

There really is no realistic comparison between Islam and Christianity in the realm of violence. Muslims generally support religious violence, Christians almost universally condemn religious violence . . . period. SO quit making excuses for muslims by trying to say "well a few Christians do the same thing". You know as well as I do that Christianity teaches against such things while Islam teaches that war and murder in the name of Allah is not only acceptable, but expected.

CJB,

Good point, however, since you have brought up speculation, I must bring up some speculation of my own.

Ass ume for a second that the criminal in question was a Christian. How would this riot have been different? Well, for starters I sincerely doubt that an entire community would have mobilized to defend the nasty pervert and instigated a riot. Yes, you read correctly. The riot would not have happened, although it is very possible that the criminal in question would have recieved a severe beating for his crime . . . which I personally am conflicted about because it seems like quick justice, but is also contrary to Christian teachings. I would prefer that the guy were handed over to the authorities, but even that might have turned out badly, for reasons I shall blog about in my next post.

By Daniel Levesque, at 7:37 AM
I agree with what everyone else is saying. There might be instances of "Christian" violence (Ireland, etc.) but the mainstream Christian community condemms it. That's the difference. Organizations like CAIR, which represent mainstream Islam, have not (to my knowledge) come out against the violence, or even against terrorism in general.

And yes, there are peaceful Muslims. I didn't say that all Muslims were terrorists. I have known several American-born and foreign-born Muslims and I know that they would never accept violence. If people like them represented mainstream Islam, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

By MJ, at 8:07 AM
As what you perceive to be 'a liberal' but I call 'sensible' I have to agree that Islam has a rather bad reputation. All the things you mentioned are pretty despicable and shouldn't happen in a civilised world. But the world is not civilised and bad things happen in it. Islam is by no means perfect, as is all organised religion. Neither is Christianity, it's just that Christians aren't as indoctrinated into it to such a degree as Muslims in the Islamic part of the world , where religion is pretty much the deciding factor in every aspect of their lives, which is plain sad, and to me a little bit wrong.

Most Muslims in England are nice throroughly agreeable people. Lots of community leaders over here have condemned terror and the latest violent protests. There are some mental cases who preach evil and beheading and such. There are also a group called The Christian Alliance who are pretty hateful too, and are not approved of by proper Christians. You are not one of those crazy Fred Phelps 'God Hates Fags' Christians, I assume? You wouldn't like to be thought of as a man who pickets funerals, would you?

But... As a gay man, I have to say that Islamic countries scare me shitless. It's like the worst of human nature drilled into a people.

Orf wiv my head? No thanks. It's the 21st century.

By DanProject76, at 11:45 AM
Dan T: Decide that Muslim is an evil religion and try to wipe enough of them out that the rest realize the foolishness of their ways and repent seems to be what you're hinting at, but I'm not sure if we really want to do that. I'd be interested in your answer.

I’m not sure whether this was directed at Daniel, or me. I wasn’t hinting that we should launch another crusade. I go with the second option; I think we should reason with them, in a manner of speaking. I think what we need to do is to show people that their strict adherence to these mediæval teachings is unnecessary. People need to see that they can live their lives happily, productively and peacefully without having to relying on an outdated book of myths to answer their questions about the world. They can be decent, moral and just without obtaining that justice from an inflexible doctrine. They can rely on themselves and each other to make laws and moral decisions based on contemporary cultural values rather than strictly adhering to an ancient culture of ignorance and violence.

That’s what I would like to see, but how to achieve it is another matter. It isn’t going to be easy to overcome millennia of indoctrination into these traditions. The first thing we need to do is to stop indoctrinating children into this way of life before they have a chance to think for themselves. Children naturally trust that what their parents tell them is the truth so when their parents tell them these stories from the past and never admit to them that they are just stories, we have yet another generation that perpetuates the problem. Until we can convince people to stop telling their children these myths as though they were true, we’ll never overcome the problem, which is, sadly, why I think we are going to have to live with this problem for a long time to come.

Of course, all of the above applies equally to Christianity as well as Islam.

By Anonymous, at 12:09 PM
DP76,

No I am not a Phelps guy, that hateful bastard sickens me.

But as for homosexuality being a thing for you to fear in the Muslim world . . . well, here is something very interesting.

Some GI's who have returned from deployment in the Middle East told me that it was common for men to proposition them for sex. Apparently, in the Muslim faith women are for nothing but babies, but for sexual pleasure you go to men. Needless to say, I find this report to be disturbing on too many levels to count.

By Daniel Levesque, at 12:27 PM
cjb, that was not directed at you, I would expect the answer you gave from you.

I'd still be interested in knowing how our other friends would answer that. What do Dan'l and others think we ought to do about the Muslim "problem"?

By Dan Trabue, at 12:32 PM
Daniel L, "Apparently, in the Muslim faith women are for nothing but babies, but for sexual pleasure you go to men." Well they got one thing right then!

Heh.

Kidding!

Just goes to show there is some twisted logic when you want to keep women down to such a degree. Weird!

By DanProject76, at 1:41 PM
Dan T,

I answer to your question . . . Do you think it's too late to evangelize the entire Muslim world? Either conservative or liberal Christianity would be a far more peaceful replacement for Islam in the world. Now, how do we go about doing that peacefully? Any suggestions?

Also, a good first step would be for liberals and the media to quit sympathizing with the worst elements of the Muslim world and start publicly condemning them, their actions, any portion of their beliefs that drive them to such atrocities.

By Daniel Levesque, at 5:20 PM
DP76,

I thought you'd get a kick out of that.

By Daniel Levesque, at 5:21 PM
Daniel, I'm not sympathizing with those Muslims who are violent. I DO condemn violence, as you know.

What I react to is the demonization of a peoples, because that tends to lead to mischief.

And so your answer is evangelism? While I'm not evangelical in the same sense that you are, I much prefer that answer to destruction. That's good to know.

By Dan Trabue, at 2:39 AM
Sorry. I shouldn't have said "most". I will rephrase.

Iran.
Syria.
Saudi Arabia.
Lebanon.
Palestine.

I can't think of any more off the top of my head, but I'll try to find some studies... Are any of those places where you would want to live? Really?

I do think that DanProject76 made a good point. People may scream and moan about how "intolerant" America is, but you know what happens to homosexuals in Islamic countries.

(Oh, btw Gayle, I'm not sixteen, I'm fifteen. :D)

By Rebekah, at 12:20 PM
Most of the stuff you said in your article was wrong. Do you know what Prophet Muhammad did when people came to kill him? You might understand why liberals embrace Islam if you knew more about it. Islam doesnt oppress women. In fact it protects their rights, and prevents men from viewing them as sexual beings. Islam teaches that men and women have equal rights. If you read the religious texts, you would learn this. It is clearly stated. The Prophet taught men to treat women kindly and gently and to care for them. Also, The Quran ( " O you who believe! ... commit no excess; for Allah loves not those given to excessQ 5:87) and The Prophet ("Beware of excessiveness in religion...") spoke out against extremism. Prophet Muhammad forbid people to kill innocent people in war, like women and children and bystanders. In today's wars, with bombs and such, its a free-for-all, which is against Islam. In regards to your saying the Muhmmad had a 'convert or die' type approach:

A) How the Prophet responded to some attacks against him:

1. His story with the Jewish neighbor who used to THROW GARBAGE at
his doorsteps:
The Prophet had this Jewish neighbor. Everyday the neighbor would
throw his garbage at the Prophet´s door! Then, one day, the garbage
stopped appearing.
The Prophet wondered why and asked people about what had happened to
his neighbor. He was told that the neighbor was sick, in bed.
So, the Prophet went and visited his Jewish neighbor to make sure he is
OK and to wish him well. So touched was the Jewish neighbor that
he later converted to Islam.

2. His story with the people of Ta?if who's children STONED him:
One day the Prophet visited the village of Ta?if near Mecca. He was
hoping to find support amongst the people of that area after he was
shunned by many of his own tribe in Mecca. Instead of support, he
was faced by a mob of children, sent by their parents to throw
stones at him. He was hit by the hail of stones. He was bleeding,
and was barely able to escape into an orchard. He could have asked
for God's wrath to be brought down upon the village, but instead he
prayed that one day these people will see the light.

3. His story with his tribe after he conquered Mecca:
When the Prophet´s army finally conquered his hometown Mecca, many
of the leaders of his tribe were filled with fear. They feared the
conquerer's retribution. Most of them NEVER BELIEVED in him. They
TORTURED and KILLED many of his followers and CONSPIRED TO KILL HIM
in the early days of his prophethood.
What did the Prophet (SAW) do? He told them: Go. You are free!

4. Once the Holy Prophet was in a certain jihad. At one time, the unbelievers found the Prophet resting under a tree. So one of them raised a sword upon the head of the Holy Prophet and asked him: "Who will prevent me to kill you?" The Prophet replied: Allah. Immediately the man's sword fell down from his hand in fear, and the Holy Prophet picked it up and said: Who will prevent me from killing you? The man said: Hold it firmly. The Holy Prophet said: Say, I bear witness, that there is no deity but Allah and that I am His Messenger. He said: I have got no envy against you, I shall not kill you. I shall not go with you and I shall not join those who fight against you. Then the Holy Prophet set him free. The man went to his tribe and said: I have come to you today from the best man.

5. a Jewess mixed poison in the food of the Holy Prophet. When he began to eat it, he smelled the poison and stopped eating. The woman was brought to the Holy Prophet and he asked her about the poisoned food. The woman said: I intended to kill you. He said: Allah will not give you that power. The companions exclaimed: Should we not kill her? The Holy Prophet said: Don't kill her.

6. Once a desert Arab urinated in presence of the Holy Prophet at the mosque. The companions were about to assault him when the Holy Prophet covered the man until he finished and kindly said to him: These mosque are not for passing urine and for uncleanliness.

By Anonymous, at 10:58 PM
Most people in Muslim countries are not practicing Islam in the way The Quran or the Prophet taught. This is a truth and we should all know this. Dont mix culture with religion.

By Anonymous, at 11:01 PM
Anonomys,

How to respond appropriately to your comment here . . .

I know.

Where did you dig up this pack of lies? Quit spouting Muslim propaganda and stick with the actual evidence. If you had ever read the Koran you wouldn't be saying that it is a peaceful rligion. If you had read the further writings of Mohammad you would see the way this man promoted violence, war, and genocide, and was using religion as his vehicle to do just this. If you bothered to look at what Islam has brought to the world, and especially in the regions where Islam is dominant you would never make the claims that you do.

"Ye shall know a man's heart by his fruits" the Bible. Look at what Islam has wrought, can you name one good thing? Okay, an Arab created the number system we use, but is math, not religion. Can you seriously look at the part of the world where Islam rules, where women are chattel, where terrorism and terrorists control countries, where "Honor Kills" an Islamic (as in, part of the religion) institution where a male family member may murder a female family if he suspects she has done something dishonorable and honestly believe anything you have just said?

And look at this silly statement "You might understand why liberals embrace Islam if you knew more about it. Islam doesnt oppress women. In fact it protects their rights, and prevents men from viewing them as sexual beings. Islam teaches that men and women have equal rights."

First off, Islam also teaches that if a woman is raped she is to be killed as an adulteress while the man is blameless. Some equality. As for protecting women from being seenas sexual objects, the exact opposite is true. In Islam women are nothing but sexual objects. Thier only purpose in life is to produce babies. Also, as far as protecting women from being sexual objects goes, it is not exactly a thing liberals stand for. It was liberals who fopught so hard to legitimixe the porn industry, fornication, and every other form of sexual misconduct that degrades women and makes them nothing but sexual objects. Conservatives like me have been fighting this crap since it started. So in a way, I CAN see how liberals and Islam are aligned, both reduce women to sex objects meant purely for male pleasure. Of course, this is not aligned with the supposed respect for women that Liberals keep claiming they have.

Story 1: nothing but an unfounded claim by a man, and what's more, it is early proof of the anti-Semitism inherrent in Islam. Mohammed was demonizing Jews from the beginning.

Story 2: Wrong! He built an army and conquored Mecca militarily. As for his claim that he was stoned, Mohammad made many false claims in his justification of violence. And since the victors get to write the history, he wrote his own history. Not exactly reliable testimony in the historicakl sense. Especialy since it conflicts with what the people he did not control at any given moment were recording about him and his followers. They were viewed by everyone as a band of thieves, brigands, and murderers. Now why would people who lived at the same time as Mohammad say such a thing? and why would it be everybody who did not follow him saying such things?

Story 3: One must assume that the supposed persecution actually occured. Outside history records no such persecution.

Story 4: Again, a story recorded by the man who was trying to build his religious army. One could just as easily assume that the situation were reversed, only Mohammad spared the man in exchange for a promise to tell the story. You have to give people something better than the words of Mohammad to prove your point here. Jesus, for example, did not record his own exploits, it was all done by His followers and outside observers. And Jesus most certainly did NOT engage in violent acts as Mohammad did.

Story 5: Another anti semitic lie. Come on man, we all know that Muslims hate Jews and want to see them exterminated. Muslim lore is filled with jewish atrocities that never happened, like the blood libels. It is provably untrue that Jews rink the blood of Muslim children, and yet this story persists as true in the Muslim community.

Story 6: The fact that urinating in a place is sacrelige is rather silly to me. By this logic there had better not be bathrooms in any mosque in the world, after all, mosques are not for uncleanliness. Again, there is no evidence that this story is even true.

I fail to see how anything you said nehates the blood of millions on the hands of Mohammad and his followers. It started with Mohammad robbing and murdering, and this activity continues to this day. How you could be so blind to simple facts as proven by events and all of recorded history in favor of biased lore is beyond me. The only thing you have successfully done with tyou comment is support the ant-semitic stance of all of Islam. After all, it was Mohammad himself who called for the extermination of the Jews. This hatred of Jews is so pervasive to Islam that Muslims the world over admired Hitler while he was alive for his 'Final Solution", the attempted extermination of the Jews.

Here's the problem you are facing. You come to me armed with fables, I come to you armed with all of history as it is recorded by non-Muslims. Ialso come to you with the words of Mohammad as he wrote them down calling for the extermination of the Jews and praising the pleasures of killing looting. Such is not the behavior of a holy man, but of one demon possesed, or at least one who is greatly influenced by demons. Just read the Koran for examples of support for violence and denigration of women interwoven with contradictory statements about peace and equality. The fact is that both sides are written in the Koran, and to claim Islam is a religion of peace and equality is to ignore the other half of Mohammad's teachings as well as his further writings and his words as recorded by his followers.

You want consistent? Read the Bible.

By Daniel Levesque, at 11:04 AM
I question your understanding and knowledge of Islam if you consistently say ‘Muhammad’s writings’. In the archive of Islamic documents, you will never find a sentence written by Muhammad. He was unable to write. His letters to many rulers of different nations among Persia, the Middle East and Africa, only contain his seal. An unlettered man could not write a simple letter to a ruler with his own pen, let alone a text containing guidelines to governance, economy, law, social structure and scientific facts (creation of the Earth, layers of the atmosphere, layers of the earth, development of the fetus etc) in such a poetic and philosophical manner.

If your logic is "Ye shall know a man's heart by his fruits", then why not look at slavery, colonialism, and Imperialism. Why not consider the rapes and genocide (Aboriginal nations) that was claimed in the name of God (Christianity)? But no, I cant do this, because you can’t judge a religion by the followers actions. Look at the text itself and the context it was written in. Some things in the quran are universal, for all times, and other things were revelations for the context.

If you say, “Can you seriously look at the part of the world where Islam rules….” as evidence for why Islam is corrupted and gender biased, then once again, look at where the Quran says you can kill a woman, as per ‘honor killings’. It is not allowed, it is forbidden. Why do you only see this in Pakistan and not in other ‘Muslim countries’ if it is accepted in Islam? It’s because it is not accepted. It’s forbidden.
As for you statement of women being killed as an adulteress, that’s also untrue. The Quran states: “If any of your women Are guilty of lewdness take the evidence of four(Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them…and those who launch a charge against chaste women
And produce not four witnesses (To support their allegations)-flog them with 80 stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors”. So in fact, in which situation are adulterers caught by just TWO witnesses? And God commands FOUR to hold against a female adulterer. On top of this it commands to FLOG THE MEN who blame them without having witnesses. The quran clearly rejects your claim of “Islam also teaches that if a woman is raped she is to be killed as an adulteress while the man is blameless”. The punishment laid out in the quran for extra-marital relations: “"The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty." (Quran 24:2)”

As for women as sexual objects in Islam, I’m not sure where your evidence is for this in the Quran and the Prophet’s sayings (which were documented by his followers, not written by himself). The Quran says: This is laid down in the Qur'an itself, (2:233): “The mothers shall give suck to their offspring for two whole years, if the father desires to complete the term, but he shall bear the cost of their food and clothing on equitable terms...If they both decide on weaning, by mutual consent, and after due consultation, there is no blame on them. If ye decide on a foster-mother for your offspring, there is no blame on you, provided ye pay what ye offered on equitable terms.” The Prophet said (his teachings are differently documented from the Revelation of the Quran because the Quran is from God. We know which is which because they are in different books and the content and style is different) The Prophet* said: The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and the best of you are those who are best to their wives. O People! it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers.

The Jewish men used to come and ask the Muhammad questions and he was not known to turn them away. You say he was demonizing Jews, can you find quotes from him that cite this? Furthermore, he married a woman that was Jewish and became a Muslim. How can he marry someone you say he hates?

You said, “Wrong! He built an army and conquored Mecca militarily”. Actually, he wrote a letter to come into Makkah to perform a religious pilgrimage peacefully, and they allowed it. There was no war. The only time’s there were war is when they were approached by attackers. If you read the historical accounts. He was sent out of Mecca because the polytheists were boycotting Muslim products and stores. They were skinning Muslims alive, stoning them and crushing their bodies with heavy stones. When the Muslims left and went into the desert with little food and belongings, the polytheists stole what was left behind in their houses. They also built up an army to crush the Muslims who were reverting to Monotheism from polytheism? Why? Because polytheism was the basis of their economy. Do you not think that the Muslims have a right to prepare an army to protect themselves? Not even after they’ve been forced out of their homes and into another city with no food?
You say, “Outside history records no such persecution.” Have you searched? Have you watched ‘The Message’ featuring Anothony Quinn? Why not watch that to see what non-Muslims have portrayed Islam to be? Is that type of perspective on the truth not objective enough for you? Or will you say ‘its based on Islamic resources’? Then why not look at documents from the 700’s that tell us what happened. Have you looked at when the companion of the Prophet conquered Israel and built mosques beside the synagogues? And socialized peacefully with the Jews? And allowed the Jews back into Israel after they were expelled? Have you looked at the peaceful treaties Muhammad made with the Jews, saying that the Muslims would protect the Jewish people from attacks and grant them their economic and social rights to peace and access? These are things you’ve subjectively overlooked.

You said, “Jesus, for example, did not record his own exploits, it was all done by His followers and outside observers” and you use this as a great proof to your resources, but once again, Muhammad did not write and second when I use the information of his followers, you say it’s invalid. “Again, there is no evidence that this story is even true” and “You come to me armed with fables” Why this double standard?
It is clear I am Muslim, and Islam teaches me tolerance. I have lots of Jewish friends and I can’t hate a person because of their beliefs. It is forbidden. I condemn the killing of innocent people because of their religion or actions or political stance. When we meet people who don’t believe in Islam, to God is our return:
“And dispute ye not With the People of the Book, Except with means better (Than mere disputation), unless It be with those of them Who inflict wrong (and injury): But say, ‘We believe In the Revelation which has Come down to us and in that Which came down to you; Our God and your God Is One; and it is to Him We bow (in Islam).’” [29:46] I have not attacked you, or your beliefs or belittled you with false information about Christianity as you’ve done with me. I am doing what God teaches me. Respect, tolerance, consideration. I believe the the Psalms was revealed to Prophet David, and the Torah to Prophet Moses and the Gospels to Prophet Jesus and the Recitation (Quran) to Prophet Muhammad. I don’t believe or promote killing of innocent people because both the quran and the Prophet forbid it. It is a major sin. You are only allowed to attack those who attack you, and if they stop, you must also forgive and live in peace with them. I suppose you want proof:
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"
"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"
"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)"
"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"
"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)"
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"
"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"
"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"
"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)"
"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"
"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

You’ve commented: .: “I also come to you with the words of Mohammad as he wrote them down calling for the extermination of the Jews and praising the pleasures of killing looting. Such is not the behavior of a holy man, but of one demon possesed, or at least one who is greatly influenced by demons.” I’d like to point out to you that you’ve not once quoted something that was revealed or said in the year 632, but you are mentioning what people are doing more than 1400 years later. You have not quoted the words of Muhammad or the Quran. I wonder how a man possessed by demon’s tell’s people to do good, be fair, equitable and stay away from racism, hatred, miserliness with the poor etc.
If it is understanding and knowledge that you seek, read the Quran in it’s entirety. Certain verses are strictly for the context it’s revealed in and others are universal. To understand what is universal, it is repeated throughout, like those that I’ve noted above. For those that are within context, it is only said once or twice. If your goal is to attack Islam without sound evidence, then as the Prophet advised towards good behaviour, ‘if you have no shame, do whatever you like…’

"it is not righteousness that you turn your face to the East and the West, but righteousness is to believe in Allah, the Last Day, and the Angels and the Scriptures and the Prophets and give wealth, in spite of love for it, to kinsfolk, orphans, the poor and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and set slaves free, and observe the proper worship and pay the poor their due. And those who keep their promises when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. These are the sincere and the pious" (2:177)

By Anonymous, at 1:42 PM
Anonomys,

"I question your understanding and knowledge of Islam if you consistently say ‘Muhammad’s writings’. In the archive of Islamic documents, you will never find a sentence written by Muhammad. He was unable to write."

Apparently you have never heard of a scribe. You know, the guy you talk to while he writes down everything you say. But yes, it would be more appropriate if I had simply d\said sayings, since he didnl;t actually write anything down, but memorized the words and made others memorize them as well. He was constantly revising the Koran throughout his lifetime, claiming that anything he wanted to change was because the original was actually satanic and not from God. Which begs the question, or at leas it SHOULD beg the question among muslims as to who Mohammad was supposed to be talking to, was it Satan or Gabriel? He seems to have recieved so much from both according to him.

"If your logic is "Ye shall know a man's heart by his fruits", then why not look at slavery, colonialism, and Imperialism. Why not consider the rapes and genocide (Aboriginal nations) that was claimed in the name of God (Christianity)? But no, I cant do this, because you can’t judge a religion by the followers actions."

Here you are absolutely wrong. You can judge what a religion is about by the actions of it's folowers as long as those actions are either A- universal and not a minority, or B- in line withthe actions and teachings of the religion's founder. Jesus never engaged in any form of violence, oppression, or degradation of others. Well, he did drive a bunch of thieves out of the temple that one time, but there is no record of anyone actually coming to harm by it. Mohammad slaughtered many people. His neighbors (non-muslim ones) recorded his many acts of thievery and murder while acting as the living head of Islam. The many crimes of Mohammad and his followers are well documented by the people he inflicted them upon.

"as per ‘honor killings’. It is not allowed, it is forbidden. Why do you only see this in Pakistan and not in other ‘Muslim countries’ if it is accepted in Islam?"

It is not restricted to Pakistan. Are you really that ignorant?

"The Quran states: “If any of your women Are guilty of lewdness take the evidence of four(Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them…and those who launch a charge against chaste women
And produce not four witnesses (To support their allegations)-flog them with 80 stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors”."

Sharia law, also in the Koran if I am not mistaken, and if I am then it is one of the supplementary writings of Mohammad, states that a woman shall be killed as an adulteress if she has any form of sexual relations with a man outside of marriage. This has been used to justify killing women who are raped as adulteresses too. Also, Sharia law makes no call for four witnesses, what you have just done is present your prophet contradicting himself.

"As for women as sexual objects in Islam, I’m not sure where your evidence is for this in the Quran and the Prophet’s sayings . . ."

Your quote regarding the care of children has noting to do with Islamic law relegating women to what is essentially slave baby factory staus. In almost every part of the Koran where male-female relationships are laid out it is always the man who is given full control of the situation, and the woman must simply accept her fate. You have cherry-picked some writings specifically to attempt to support you claims to the contrary, but you know as well as I do that such a practice results a deceptive and incomplete knowledge of any topic, especially of a religion. When evaluating any religion it is absolutely vital to know what the entirety of the written scriptures say, as well as any aditional writings by that religion's founder as they can be found. Mohammad has left behind so many writings and sayings, exemplified by his example regarding actively opressing women and non-muslims, violence against non-muslims, even the permissibility of any crime against "infidels", meaning non-Muslims. Mcuh of this is even recorded in the Koran , in passages you have not chosen to present here.

You must understand something, I am far too educated in Islam to be swayed by a one-sided presentation of that religion. The tactic of only presenting the calm parts of teh religion to outsiders is common to most religions, and is even frequently noted as a preferable tactic to use until a person has been properly indoctinated into the faith. The lie that Islam is a peaceful religion is well documented by both a study of the writings of the founder, and by the consistent actions of muslims which have not changed throughout history. One fine website that documents this stuff is The Religion of Peace. While it is quite inflamatory, you will be hard pressed to find inacuuracies. It is, of course, a site that is hated by all Muslims who have come across it so far. I would be surprised if there were not multiple threats made against the lives and families of the men who run the site by enraged Muslims.

"The Jewish men used to come and ask the Muhammad questions and he was not known to turn them away. You say he was demonizing Jews, can you find quotes from him that cite this? Furthermore, he married a woman that was Jewish and became a Muslim. How can he marry someone you say he hates?"

He was also known to kill Jews who refused to convert to Islam. There is an entire set of Islamic law designed to denigrate and humilate Jews, just an example from an independent source:

"For example, a Jew could never have his head higher than a Muslim. So if a Jew was walking along, and a Muslim passed by, the Jew had to step into the gutter in deference to the Muslim's superior status. A Jew could never testify against a Muslim in court (which basically meant there was no justice for Jews). A Jew could not have a house of worship that was higher than a mosque, which is why (for example) the Four Sephardic Synagogues in the Old City of Jerusalem are subterranean. It should be noted that throughout history some of these laws were not uniformly enforced, and there were periods of time when Jews living in Muslim countries were openly persecuted and others when they were treated very well."

For a fine list of quotes such as you request and the actual actions of Mohammad and his followers as well as a good look at the teachings of Islam in general you can go to the website I have already pointed out, or feel free to check the following:

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/muhammad.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm

http://answering-islam.org/

Or perhaps I should just stick some Koranic verses right here.

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. al-Ma'idah 5:51

The Jews say: Allah's hand is fettered. Their hands are fettered and they are accursed for saying so. Nay, but both His hands are spread out wide in bounty. He bestoweth as He will. That which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them, and We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguisheth it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loveth not corrupters. al-Ma'idah 5:64 (I especially like the way he calls the Jews and Christians the enemy and corruptors)

O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,
On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard. at-Taubah 9:34-35

Here is an interesting contradiction with himslef. "Hast thou not seen those unto whom a portion of the Scripture hath been given, how they believe in idols and false deities, and how they say of those (idolaters) who disbelieve: "These are more rightly guided than those who believe"?" an-Nisa' 4:51 . I thought you Muslims were supposed to believe that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worshipped the same God. This verse from the Koran says the Jews and Christians are idolaters. Which is it? How do you reconcile this and other verses of the Koran where your own supposedlu holy book is direct opposition to what you have everyone believe?

This claim is laughable . . . "Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess. al-Baqarah 2:78" in light of the fact that Mohammad was one such "ulettered folk" as you so proudly claim.

And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. al-Ma'idah 5:13 - You just gotta love the utter kindness and love emanating from this verse about Jews.

You get the picture by now I'm sure. It is not hard to dig up the words of your prophet teaching hatred against the Jews, and exposing his own personal hatred of Christians and Jews. You may want desperately to pull a fast one on me, telling the usual lies about love and peace in Islam, but the Koran is utterly riddled with calls for blood, retribution, and denigration.

How about a few Koran verses regarding women?

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. an-Nisa' 4:34 - Mmmmm, scouging women. How gentle and respectful of a man.

This is one of those "other writings" I was talking about earlier:
"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) of 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Sahih Bukhari 1.301, Sahih Bukhari 2.541) "

So women are inherrently defiecient are they? Worth only half a man, are they? With such a high regard for women it's no wonder they hold their currentplace in Muslim nations and households.

" . . . And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise. al-Baqarah 2:228"

Women are similar to, but less than men eh? seems less than generous to me.

More additional words of Mohammad:
"Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you." (Sahih Bukhari 1.28, Sahih Bukhari 2.541)"
Nice. Most women are going to Hell simply because they were not grateful to thier husbands, and we all know that Muslim men are remowned for thier treatment of women. Too bad that renown if for maltreatment of women.

"* Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: A woman, an ass and a dog disrupt the prayer, but something like the back of a saddle guards against that. (Sahih Muslim, Number 1034)

* Narrated 'Aisha: The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away, for I disliked to face him." (Sahih Bukhari 1.490)"

Wow. Women are so awful, so eveil, so unclean that if one passes in front of a man while he is praying his prayer is voided out by Allah. Such high regard is hard to ignore.

MOre Muslim teaching about women - "The right to make an oath only belongs to the husband of the woman, and the master of the slave. (Malik's Muwatta Book 36, Number 36.4.7)"

Here we see women specifically called slaves to men.

More Islamic teaching about the deficiency of women:

"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind." (Sahih Bukhari 3.826)"

Real nice of you guys. In fact, I am so overwhelmed by your religion's generosity toward women and jews that I think I shall stoop right here and let you soak in it.

By Daniel Levesque, at 3:22 PM
Once again you are taking quotes out of context. I'm convinced you havent read the Quran in its entirety, nor have you studied it.

I've read the quran many more times than you, and i've never come to the absurd conclusions that you have, and if I am truly Muslim then I must be practicing what you charge Islam with, yet I am not, therefor I'm an evidence against your false information.

God has created man and woman differently, and among the Torah, Bible and Quran, they have different roles attributed to sexes. Because you have no insight, you have taken those quotes at face value without cross-referencing. Any professional researcher cross-references his information and searches to see if the converse of an argument is true. For instance, walking infront of someone while they pray is a major sin, and when Allah talked about it, He did not mention the sex of the person. It may be that the Prophet was talking to a woman in that quote but Allah revealed the general truth to ALLL human beings. Today a woman walked infront of my mom as she was praying and when she realized that she did, she felt remorseful, but I smiled at her to acknowledge her regret and to reassure her. So you see, it doesnt matter the gender of the person doing the ill-deed.

You've not cited anything saying Prophet Muhammad was a thief or that he was receiving messages from the devil and the angel. Your most extreme claims are based on nothing concrete, you realize that dont you? Thievery, murdering of women, commanding that non-Muslims be killed if they dont convert. Remember that Prophet Muhammad made a treaty with the people to protect them as a Statesman. Historically speaking, it was the Jews he broke the treaty by making an alliance with those wanting to kill monotheists (THIS IS NOT IN THE QURAN OR THE PROPHETS SAYINGS, THIS IS HISTORY BOOKS), and as such, with the omniscient nature of God, these verses were revealed to warn the Muslims to beware of attack. Once again, context. (Context means the situation something resides in and that the information pertains specifically to that surrounding info) I thought I should make the definition clear to you since you dont seem to understand that many verses are within context and are outweighed by universal commandments.

And of course he had slain people in a war vis a vis defending people. He went into the desert with the monotheist for three months, suffering from hunger and uncertainty, to escape persecution, and when their opposers came to attack him and the believers, they defended themselves - and you think this makes him a murderer? What do you call soldier then, fighting for their rights to live, to defend their country? I've given you numerous verses that say to only attack if they attack or oppress you and if they stop, then you also stop and forgive them. People can defend borders, government and culture but not their right to live or believe in One God?

You have to understand that like every Prophet, Prophet Muhammad was persecuted for teaching monotheism and to give up a wealth-hoarding existence. In this time, people were prone to war, and when Prophet Muhammad simply spoke the message, they took up arms against him. Instead of fighting, he lived in the desert for three months then went to Medina for three years. (THIS IS NOT IN THE QURAN OR THE PROPHETS SAYING, THIS IS HISTORY - READ) You are not granting people the right to defend themselves.

I've given you a clear quote from the Quran stating that people are FLOGGED for adultery BOTH MEN AND WOMEN and you still insist based on no source that women are killed and men are innocent.

As for the deficiency of women's religion, any human being who consistently has excrements or impure fluids flowing from their body (menses, sperm, puss etc) cant pray until they're completely clean of it - and since women have their menses once a month, they cannot pray in the formal manner (although she can make personal prayers). Therefore in that respect, her practice is deficient due to her biology, but it is not held against women by any means. As for deficiencies in intellect, I have a B.A. in psychology and i cant tell you that the mental capacities for men an women ARE NOT THE SAME. Ask any grade 7 student and they will tell you the same. Men's mental capacities for logic and reason outweigh's womens while women have greater capacities for emotional capacities (ie all Prophets an most rulers being men. Do you not then understand?)

Regarding my quote of the quran about the weaning, it shows that men and women consult each other as to how they raise the child and that it is not assumed that the women do it. The Prophet washed his own clothes and often performed duties around the house. Women are not sole-bearers or household and child-rearing. In fact the Prophet loved and cared for his daughters greatly and spent much time in educating them, which once again proves their respectable status. Heaven lies at the feet of our mothers (NOT FATHERS), they are not defiled. Prophet used to speak respectfully and highly of his deceased wife and she was the first to revert to Islam and comfort him when he became a Prophet. I could go on and on about the status of women in Islam, but you would turn a deaf ear and blind eye as you have proven to.

You quote: "They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. al-Ma'idah 5:13"

Do you not see the major point is to deal with them kindly?

What Allah mentions is what you're doing! You're taking information out of context to insult Muslims. "They change words from their context."
You've rejected parts of the scripture (Torah, Gospels, Psalms) that tell us to worship One God, where God said that is punishable for putting partner to God (Jesus). "forget a part of that whereof they were admonished"

He was also known to kill Jews who refused to convert to Islam. "Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them." The Quran has forbidden that and I've quoted the many verses that show that. How can you force someone to covert? Faith is in the heart!

"For example, a Jew could never have his head higher than a Muslim...." not from the Quran or said by the Prophet. Weak argument on your part, once again.

You keep saying that Prophet Muhammad made them record it, but his personal quotes were not written until after his death. I cannot be expected to believe that you "are far too educated in Islam to be swayed by a one-sided presentation of that religion" if you are constantly spouting out incorrect information of what is commonly known in Islam.

It is sad that you'd rather attack your fellow-human being rather than learn about him and respect him like Jesus taught.

Once again, the verses that command Muslims to be kind to all human beings and all created things outweigh the few that were written in context of attacks upon the Muslims.

I could educate you on each quote, but it is clear that knowledge is not what you seek, but fulfilment of your anger and hatred.

Ask yourself, what did Prophet Muhammad gain from the revelation of islam? He did not become rich, or a king, or famous among the people nor did he have people serve him. He became outcasted, he was poor and always looked after his self. So why make this sacrafice after all the death threats? He said 'if you were to give me the moon in my right hand and the sun in my left, i would not stop teaching Islam'

Ask yourself, why is Islam the fastest growing religion? Is your response because they force it on people? But in America, and East Asia and Europe there is no war causing humans to convert... It is because as Allah said:
"Nay, we hurl the truth against
Falsehood, and it knocks out its brain,
And behold, falsehood doth perish"

(ie because your false accusations and misinterpretations and attacks can not hold a candle to the truth that has lasted 1400 yrs, while all other religions are being questioned as to their origins)

By Anonymous, at 11:14 PM
Anonomys,

Regarding your first paragraph, When Mohammad said women are mentally deficient I take him at his word, and that is that he says they are mentally deficient. Regardin gthe whole "anyone walking in front of someone who is praying is a sin", I provided the koranic verses that just say it is women and dogs and leave everything else out, where are your supporting verses that are right next to the ones I quoted that actually include everyone? As it is, it looks to me like mohammad was saying women are like dogs, and dirty even.

"You've not cited anything saying Prophet Muhammad was a thief or that he was receiving messages from the devil and the angel"

Mohammad himself, when he made a revision to a verse or passage he had already given would denounce the old verse as being from Satan while the new verse was given by the angel Gabriel. However, every time he gave a new passasge or verse for the first time he would claim it was from Gabriel. This means that, according to mohammad's own words, he must have been in contact with both Gabriel, and Satan in the guise of Gabriel. Knowing that Satan is the father of lies it leaves one to wonder if Gabriel was there at all. It also leaves one to wonder how one who claimed to be God's prohet could be so easily and frequently decieved by the same spiritual forces he was supposed to be attuned to. Oh, lemme guess, such discussion has been forbidden among all good Muslims in order to prevent them from seeing this common sense, glaring problem with your supposed prophet. Seriously, name on prophet from the Bible who was ever decieved into thinking an encounter with the demonic was actualy an encounter with the divine.

"Historically speaking, it was the Jews he broke the treaty by making an alliance with those wanting to kill monotheists"

Are you saying that Jews are polythiests? Or are you saying that Christians are polytheists? Either way, how do you reconcile such an assertion with the Koranic teaching that Jews and Christians are monothiests worshipping the same God as the Muslims, only with an incomplete revelation? Lemme guess, this contradiction never once actualy crossed your mind, did it?

"He went into the desert with the monotheist for three months, suffering from hunger and uncertainty, to escape persecution, and when their opposers came to attack him and the believers, they defended themselves - and you think this makes him a murderer?"

And yet you leave out the aggressive military campaign he started and led in an effort to pread his newly imagined up religion as far as possible, and all of the people he and his followers killed in the process. You leave out the villaiges where he issued an order for everyone to convert or die, and then he actually followed thorugh with the beheading of every man who did not convert, women and children wer frequently spared for use as slaves and concubines. Yu leave out the peace treaties he made which he broke the instant he had the military might to win, such as the three year truce he had with Mecca, which he broke as soon as he enough men to lay a sucessful siege to the city. He justified this by saying that the word of a Muslim to an infidel was not fully binding, a teaching that is pervasive in teh Muslim world to this day.

"I've given you a clear quote from the Quran stating that people are FLOGGED for adultery BOTH MEN AND WOMEN and you still insist based on no source that women are killed and men are innocent."

And I said just check out Shairia law where it says that the women die, but does nt demand the death of the men.

"As for the deficiency of women's religion, . . . As for deficiencies in intellect, I have a B.A. in psychology and i cant tell you that the mental capacities for men an women ARE NOT THE SAME . . ."

Again, you are simply trying to justify a stance that places women below men. You say that any consisten unclean bodily fluid being expelled makes a person unclean for ritual prayer. Fiine, tell me, since you urinate, deficate, and possibly even ejaculate daily, are you, as a man, ritually cleansing yourself after every emission of any of these bodily fluids in order to make yourself ritually clean for prayer? And what of menopausal women? They no longer have menses, so arethey suddenly considered to be the religious equal of men at that point? Don;t bother answering, I already knw the answer is "no".

Regarding mental differences, yes there are differences in the individual strengths of mental filtering in men and women. However, if you have usch qualifications as you state then you know that there is NO difference in the average intelligence betweenmen and women. This means that they are provably NOT mentally deficient, and any claim that women being mre emotional makes them mentally deficient is simply the ignorant statement of a mysogonistic false prophet and people who are gullible enough to follow him.

"I could go on and on about the status of women in Islam, but you would turn a deaf ear and blind eye as you have proven to."

Oh,plase, don't restrain yourself on my account. I'll just let you make your claims and let everyone who reads this compare it with the actually see happening in the muslim world where women are beaten, killed, and humilated on a whim. Your fellow Muslims are all the proof anyone needs to see the status of women in Islam.

OH! A side note from the Msulim world! True story: Vast numbers of muslim women want to marry Christian men because the Christians treat their wives better than the muslims do. The conversion rate from Islam to Christianity among Muslim women who marry Christin men is in excess of 80%. This is by no means universal, but the claims made by these Muslim, and formerly Muslim women are quite compelling.

"Do you not see the major point is to deal with them kindly? "

Did you not see all the other verses calling them wicked and deserving of punishment? Do you not see in the same verse where Mohammad is calling Jews trecherous and never to be trusted? Are you really so blind that you are incapable of seeing what is being said and the actions it motivates?

Let me present a situation and see if it makes sense to you or if it contradicts itself.

'Ethnic group A is bunch of lying, thieving infidels who are responsible for the blood of the ritcheous, can never be trusted, break every law of God, and must be subjugated. By the way, be nice when you crush them underfoot.'

This is a very bref summary of what Mohammad said about the Jews, and includes the law he made up for how Jews are to be treated while in Muslimlands, which includes such ridiculousnes as no Jew being allowed to have is head higher than a Muslim, forcing them to bow as they walk to whatever point places them in a physicaly inferior position to the surrounding Muslims. Such kindness boggles the mind. Such generosity in rhetoric is genuinely amazing. (catchthe sarcasm?)

"What Allah mentions is what you're doing! You're taking information out of context to insult Muslims."

Really? When I look at the whole text, the stories and saying of mohammad as recorded by his followers, and the full measure of Islamic law I see exactly what I have presented to you. What's more, every single ex-Muslim I have ever met says the exact same thing. Of course, to you these people ar enothing more than apostates, so I expect you to ignore them.

"the verses that command Muslims to be kind to all human beings and all created things outweigh the few that were written in context of attacks upon the Muslims."

What you are saying is that you expect people to overlook the calls for blood, the sanctification of revenge by murder, and the numerous other ways the Koran advocates violence because there are more verses that speak of peace than of violence. This is a palpably ridiculous argument. You yourself have just said that it is a sin to take the Koran in part and parcel, so you cannot do as you have just suggested. By your own words youm, as a muslim, should treat people kindly as you exact bloody revenge upon them for percieved ills. This is probably the most glaring basic contradiction one can possibly encounter, and it is what your religion says to do.

"Ask yourself, what did Prophet Muhammad gain from the revelation of islam? He did not become rich, or a king, or famous among the people nor did he have people serve him."

Are you ignorant or stupid? Mohammad became exceedingly famous, he was the leader of a huge army of religious fanatics, which made him exceedingly powerful. Did he become a king? No, he became something far greater than a king, he became a lasting icon to billions of poeple throughout history. People, who revere him as the greatest messenger of God. What is a king when compared to that? And you ask what Mohammad gained from his conquest.

"Ask yourself, why is Islam the fastest growing religion? Is your response because they force it on people?"

Allow me to respond with the words of Jesus:

"For many shall come in my name, saying 'I am the Christ,' and will decieve many.
And you wil hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
And nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there wil be famines, pestillences, and earthquakes in various places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Thenthey will deiver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sakes.And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and wil hae one another.
Thenm any false prophets will rise up and decieve many." Matthew 24:5-11.

It goes on much longer, and is supported by the book of the Revelation. (Note that I am not bothering to use Paul as a reference. I am fully aware that any educated Muslim is convinced that Paul waa a false teacher who usurped the teachings of Jesus. As such my refrences are Matthew and John, whom Muslims consider to be credible sources of Biblical information. In later debates expect some Mark thrown in as well.)

The point being that Jesus said himself that others would come after Him and claim His place in the spiritual world, and that they would decieve the world with thier lies. The greatest of these is Mohammad, I have an article coming up very soon that compares the words of Mohammad to the words of Jesus and shows how this is true. I suggest we move the debate to there. Yes, there is a 100% incompatibility between the claims of Jesus and he claims of Mohamad that mean one of them must be false, and there is strong evidence that Mohammmad is the false one.

beyond that, do you not consider it interesting that we can look at the world today and see the words of Jesus coming to fruition? and is it not interesting that penalty for a Muslim who converts to Christianity is death by beheading, and that the Antichrist shall also kill Christians by beheading?

Is it not utterly fascinating that the place the Antichrist is to come from is right in the heart of Muslim lands?

By Daniel Levesque, at 2:35 PM
Daniel, as your other posts show, you're ill-informed and you still have problems of being able to differentiate valid and invalid sources.
Actually, the rate of reversion to Islam is 4:1 male to female because it gives womens rights, so you're wrong with your statistics.
There is no verse in the quran talking about passing infront of someone who is praying, so you're wrong in saying its mentioned in the quran.
And yes, when any muslims urinates, excretes solid wastes, ejaculates, or bleeds, they go through a washing ritual so that they are pure for prayer. You thought the answer was 'no' to your question, but little do you know, the answer is 'yes' in all these occassions men and women have to wash themselves, even every time they use the washroom. That is part of the teachings of Islam. Once again, you are uninformed.

Also, you're attributing words to prophet Muhammad of being anti-jew, and stealing and saying that if ppl dont covert they do - you have not cited any clear references that these are universal commandments.

No, wars did not begin until they were robbed and approached by those who wanted to destroy Muslims. If you continue to reject this truth, you are rejecting history because you will not find this fact in the saying of the Prophet nor the Quran.

THe point that the 'be tolerant' outweigh the 'fight against them' is, if you remember from what I last told you, that the lesser amounts are in context, and the greater references are universal. If you keep this in mind, you will be more credible as a rhetor (ww.dictionary.com), whereas your invalid sourcing makes you clearly non-credible.

This is why this will be my last post, because you consistently source false quotes and take them out of context when I've taught you better...

Also, what Khan meant was that you can look forward to reversions to islam continuing to rise among all races in North America and Europe.

By Anonymous, at 7:52 PM
Sorry the rate of conversion is 4:1, WOMEN:men

and yes, women who are post-menopausal have no reason to exclude themselves from prayer. Women's adherence to the commandments of Allah are the same as men, except where Allah's Mercy makes it easy by exemption from fasting when pregnant and from prayer when menstruating among others. etc

Muhammads gains. He did not want any: If you read his teachings he said, "The worldly comforts are not for me. I am like a traveller, who takes a rest under a tree in the shade and then goes on his way." (Tirmidhi) All he wanted was the afterlife, so he doesnt care about success and is name in this world.

the Prophet once said, “By God, he is not a believer, by God, he is not a believer, by God, he is not a believer, with whom his neighbors are not secure.

Prophet said, “If a believer is not able to benefit others, he must at least do them no harm.”

Rasulullah saw said : "The world is but a provision and the best provision of the world is a pious and virtous woman ". (Muslim)

Rasulullah saw as saying : "The believers who show the most perfect faith are those who have the best character, and the best of you are those who are best to their wives". (Tirmidhi)

Since this is my last post - I am a Muslim. I am a Muslim woman. I have chosen Islam because I am knowledgable of how Allah and the Prophet commands women to act and parents and men to treat women. It tells us not to present our sexuality for all people to enjoy and that men are obligated to treat us kindly and listen to us. I am more knowledgable than you in Islam and the Prophet never raised his hand or voice at his women. Islam teaches me to be tolerant and kind and patient and to be fair. I've read this, I know this, and as you've seen, I've practiced this.

You are a Christian and claim to be superior but I've seen you do nothing but belittle and insult the whole nation of Muslims around the world, on top this the Prophet and God, who revealed the final revelation. I have shown you in my approach to you what Islam is. Patience, kindness, respect and consideration.

By Anonymous, at 8:27 PM
You think Islam commands muslims to behave as they'tre superior to non-muslims and insult and mistreat them. Why am I not doing that to you then? And why does that not happen in Canada, America, Europe, Jordan, India, China...ec?
Clearly you are wrong1

By Anonymous, at 8:31 PM
The only difference, Khan, is that the British imposed it on people and killed people who werent Christians (at least in the "new world") but when Islam grows anywhere in the world today, it is not by the sword.

British imposition and the killing of innocent non-Christians is the only reason why Christianity happens to be the largest religion in the world.
2000
Christianity: 2.1 billion (dropping)
Islam: 1.2 billion (growing)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

2005
Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion

*note, islam is the only religion thats growing at statistically significant proportions and christianity is the only religion dropping at statistically significant proportions. i can understand why you are bashing islam in your ignorance, because you fear its truth. billions of people cant be converting to a 'terrorist' religion, surely its something else. why dont you read the whole quran to find out, instead of parts of it.

By Anonymous, at 10:02 PM

Raving Conservative

Tuesday, February 07, 2006

Gotta Love That Islam

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